10 replies to this topic

[taniwharugby]

now when a tackler makes a tackle that goes to ground, are they not supposed to at least give the guy on the ground the opportunity to present or release the ball?

A number of times last night the player who made the tackle pretty much had hold of the ball the whole time and then went to ground, stood up without ever releasing and the ref pinged the guy on the ground for holding.

[ACT Crusader]

Technically yes. The tackler has to release the tackled player and then compete for ball.

And yes, Giteau should not have been awarded a short arm last night because he never at any point let go of Kahui.

There seems to be an obsession with some refs that as long as the tackler is on his feet than anything goes. Other laws are disregarded.

[KiwiPie]

Ok here's something that I have noticed with the ELVs in the Air NZ Cup. There are a large number of free kick turnovers to the defending side when the ref rules that the tackled player is holding on. However often the defending player is only on his feet briefly (although sometimes he has his knees on the tackled player) at which point he flops over the ball while continuing to hang on - what he doesn't actually seem to do is try to rip the ball away. The attacking side can't easily clear him as he isn't standing up and they can't get to the ball as he is sealing him off. The worst that can happen to him is a free kick against him but more often than not there is a turnover. It makes the game very disjointed as possession swiitches from one side to the other and the refs don't seem to punish the defending side as often as they could. Thoughts?

[taniwharugby]

I've also noticed a few who just get themselves into the position to try and get the turnover, but don't try to get the ball, and the ref awards the free kick.

The refs have also continued to allow people to fly into rucks (ala Burger) and go straight off their feet.

Defenders hold on, while on the ground, for a second or 2, ref tells them to let it go, they do, but the damage is done.

Refs should ref the game, not coach as well.

Reffing has been shite!

[Goober]

Oh yeah that's right the reffing has been shite, it's not fault of the rules or the players or the commentators. The breakdown has never been problematic before ...

On topic, KiwiPie's point raises an interesting point: something that has actually been targeted this year is the defending players not supporting their own weight when contesting for the ball. So the guys flopping over with their knees on the tackled player shouldn't be getting away with it. Of course, it's a fine line there, and another thing refs are looking at is that there is no ruck unless you've got guys from both teams on their feet in contact over the ball (that's the law definition).

So (although there is technically no conflict here) it's tricky on one hand trying to get guys to support their own weight, and on the other hand letting players on their feet have a crack when there is no ruck.

Agree with points made by TR elsewhere: tackled player needs to release quicker, and arriving players (often attackers) are flopping straight to ground at arrival. 

I like many of the ELVs but I really think the breakdown area should revert, or just be left alone for a while. If there is going to be a post-tackle contest for the ball, it will always be a mess, and shifting the goalposts won't change that.

[Kirwan]

Watched that game from the awesome 96 series against the Boks. It was really noticeable that the players were staying on their feet and even binding on each other to drive over the ball.

It was only 12 years ago and the breakdown is unrecognisable.

If refs were give direction to blow the pea out of the whistle for players leaving their feet it would stop in less than two weeks.

[Crucial]

Kirwan said:

Watched that game from the awesome 96 series against the Boks. It was really noticeable that the players were staying on their feet and even binding on each other to drive over the ball.

It was only 12 years ago and the breakdown is unrecognisable.

If refs were give direction to blow the pea out of the whistle for players leaving their feet it would stop in less than two weeks.

Cue LeeGrant and his story about how that was tried in 1886 in Australia and didn't last.....

I agree though, we keep on changing the interpretation to allow players to do things that are not legal. Enforce the laws and make it very clear to the coaches and players and there is little need for refs to make up their own interpretation (or for maost of the ELVs)

[Dodge]

Kirwan said:

Watched that game from the awesome 96 series against the Boks. It was really noticeable that the players were staying on their feet and even binding on each other to drive over the ball.

It was only 12 years ago and the breakdown is unrecognisable.

If refs were give direction to blow the pea out of the whistle for players leaving their feet it would stop in less than two weeks.

that is exactly what they've been told and exactly what they did in the first weekend of the GP up here this week.  Gloucester and Leicester were pinged off the park for going off their feet, it ended up with people rucking past the ball on their feet, was very strange to watch!  No free kicks either!

[Kirwan]

Dodge said:

Kirwan said:

Watched that game from the awesome 96 series against the Boks. It was really noticeable that the players were staying on their feet and even binding on each other to drive over the ball.

It was only 12 years ago and the breakdown is unrecognisable.

If refs were give direction to blow the pea out of the whistle for players leaving their feet it would stop in less than two weeks.

that is exactly what they've been told and exactly what they did in the first weekend of the GP up here this week.  Gloucester and Leicester were pinged off the park for going off their feet, it ended up with people rucking past the ball on their feet, was very strange to watch!  No free kicks either!

I've only caught 20mins of Northampton, and I did see that getting pinged hard. One of the biggest things they could do to sort out the breakdown.

[Red Beard]

Tough call on any tackler being pinged for trying to rip the ball off a tackled player if he has got back to his feet. How long should the tackled player be given to release? Its split second stuff. If the tackler waits too long he will be cleaned out by the attacking support player ansd then there wouldnt be any turnovers. IMO by the time the tackler has got back to his feet, the tackled player should have have released the ball otherwise he is hanging on illegally.

[taniwharugby]

Red Beard said:

Tough call on any tackler being pinged for trying to rip the ball off a tackled player if he has got back to his feet. How long should the tackled player be given to release? Its split second stuff. If the tackler waits too long he will be cleaned out by the attacking support player ansd then there wouldnt be any turnovers. IMO by the time the tackler has got back to his feet, the tackled player should have have released the ball otherwise he is hanging on illegally.

Point is, he has never at any point in the motion of tackling the player ball and all, let the ball or player go (in the example that prompted the thread)

He doesnt have to wait, he needs to release, and then have a go, and genuinely have a go, as I also said, a number of players are just bracing themselves for the players to blow over the ruck, without actually trying to pick the ball up and be awarded a free kick.