33 replies to this topic

[Donsteppa]

It seems like time for the traditional "I think they've got it hopelessly wrong so to help out the blokes in charge of the All Blacks they should follow my sage wisdom and pick..." thread. To kick things off, for the test against Australia I'd go with:

Tight five. I don't think there's too many changes that we can make here, I don't think de Malmanche is yet an option, possibly starting Afoa, but:

1. Woodcock
2. Hore
3. Franks
4. Thorn
5. Ross

Loose forwards. Thompson made the best impact I've seen him make, but it was against a tiring Boks side. Interesting that Rodders didn't even make it on the field... against Austraila it's almost tempting to go with: 6. Thompson 7. McCaw 8. Read, but I'd probably go with:

6. Read
7. McCaw
8. So'oialo (a hunch based on his experience)

With Kaino to make some good yards with ball in hand off the bench. As for the next two:

9. Cowan
10. Carter

But the next five throw up some interesting options...

11. Jane
12. Nonu
13. Toeava
14. The Rock
15. Mils

With a reluctant "last chance for now" selection of Mils at fullback?

Reserves:
16. De Malmanche
17. Afoa
18. Donnelly ( we need "A. Lock" regardless)
19. Kaino (Thompson unlucky)
20. Weepu
21. Donald (by default)
22. Sivivatu/Gear

[DMX]

Crockett gets his chance at loosehead for me. Back row, very hard decisions, Thomson, Mcaw and Soialo very tempting with Kaino and Read on the bench. Kaino seems to have lost some steam after a strong start to test seaon. In the backs Nonu at 12 and the choice of 13 very tough, Mils or Toeava? i think I go with Mils, he has not been doing business at full back but I think he can fill in at centre for now. I would like to ease Toeava back in with the ultimate goal of him going to full-back . Then back three Jane, Sivi and Gear. Donald and Toeava on the bench.

[AledforPM]

1. Woodcock
2. ADM
3. Franks
4. Thorn
5. Ross

I'm not hugely a fan of the personnel in the tight at the moment. I would pick ADM just to try get some early fire going in the pack, Hore on the bench with no hesitation to yank ADM is he isn't up to it in the lineouts... Thorn is really disappointing me this season but there's a lack of options and its good to have an 'intimidator' in the pack against the aussies. I also don't think Ross supplies enough grunt for a test lock at this stage of his career but is the best lineout option.

6. Kaino
7. McCaw
8. Read

Think these guys are going ok, if tight 5 dominates they grow also. McCaw needs a big game regardless against Aussie. I'm sure he'll step it up.

9. Cowan
10. Carter

Not liking Cowan and his pass but don't think Leonard has the form and I'm not a Weepu fan. I think some new blood should be taken on the EOYT.

11. Sivi
12. Nonu
13. Muliaina
14. Rok
15. Jane

I think with the injury problems and Mils looking to have lost a step it might be time to see if he is a candidate for a late-career position switch to extend him out. Jane is the prototype fullback in the current style of international game and I think Rok is nothing like his old self but still doing better than people would think. Not a fan of Nonu-Toeava as a starting midfield.. too many brain explosions possible.

16. Afoa
17. Hore
18. Donnelly
19. Thompson
20. Leonard
21. Slade
22. Toeava

Thompson showed me something for the first time last night, So'oialo needs to go away, get fit and prove he still has it in next years S15. Donnelly can come on for Thorn if the lineout remains wobbly and hopefully will do just enough around the park.

Donald I think isas good a pick as Slade but I am officially off the bandwagon so seeing as they haven't been emptying their bench just for the sake of it I wouldn't mind Slade in there. Toeava looked great off the bench - I think this is his best role as he doesn't have as much pressure without the tag 'starter'. He can cover 12-15 and will make an impact against tiring defenders.

On a long-term view, I think our current areas of real concern is a lack of fire and grit in the tight 5 and a lack of a good distributing halfback to set the backline alight. These, as well as devising a way to play the game to our strengths again and countering the forceback gameplan are the key things that we need to sort out on the EOYT and in next years 3N.

[Razbra]

Donsteppa said:

It seems like time for the traditional "I think they've got it hopelessly wrong so to help out the blokes in charge of the All Blacks they should follow my sage wisdom and pick..." thread. To kick things off, for the test against Australia I'd go with:

Tight five. I don't think there's too many changes that we can make here, I don't think de Malmanche is yet an option, possibly starting Afoa, but:

1. Woodcock
2. Hore
3. Franks
4. Thorn
5. Ross

Loose forwards. Thompson made the best impact I've seen him make, but it was against a tiring Boks side. Interesting that Rodders didn't even make it on the field... against Austraila it's almost tempting to go with: 6. Thompson 7. McCaw 8. Read, but I'd probably go with:

6. Read
7. McCaw
8. So'oialo (a hunch based on his experience)

With Kaino to make some good yards with ball in hand off the bench. As for the next two:

9. Cowan Weepu
10. Carter

But the next five throw up some interesting options...

11. Jane Sivi
12. Nonu Ice
13. Toeava Mils
14. The Rock
15. Mils jane

With a reluctant "last chance for now" selection of Mils at fullback?

Reserves:
16. De Malmanche
17. Afoa
18. Donnelly ( we need "A. Lock" regardless)
19. Kaino (Thompson unlucky)
20. Weepu Cowan
21. Donald (by default) Slade
22. Sivivatu/Gear

Gear

[Duluth]

[edit]Changed because of the Sivi injury[edit]

1. Woodcock
2. De Malmanche
3. Franks
4. Thorn
5. Ross

Sure there's fundamental problems with the lineout but currently we have too many locks out injured, so only Hore pays the price.

6. Kaino
7. McCaw
8. Read

I like the combo and the balance. The game was lost at the lineout and in the backs, not the loosies

9. Cowan
10. Carter

11. [del:dsdzlylz]Sivi[/del:dsdzlylz] Jane in for the injured Sivi
12. Nonu
13. Mils
14. Rok
15. Toeava

Toeava must start, but he should be in his best position. One of the best long kicks int he country but still a great attacking threat.. Mils is struggling and if either Smith or Kahui was fit he'd be on the bench.

Reserves:
16. Hore
17. Afoa
18. Boric - Only just came back but I would take a slight gamble on him as a lock/blindside helps the balance of the 22 so much
19. Whitelock - Only because I would like to see the Whitelock/McCaw/Read combo late in the game. Whitelock/McCaw combined beautifully in that shield game.

20. Leonard - Is Weepu still injured?
21. McAlister - By default. Donald should not be near this AB side
22. [del:dsdzlylz]Jane[/del:dsdzlylz] Ummm... Gear I guess

[Winger]

Quote

1. Woodcock 2. Hore 3. Franks 4. Thorn 5. Ross
6. Thompson 7. McCaw 8. So'oialo or Read

9. Cowan10. Carter12. Nonu
11. Jane
13. Sivivatu or Mils
14. Sivivatu or Mils
15. Toeava

Reserves:
16. De Malmanche
17. Afoa
18. Donnelly ( we need "A. Lock" regardless)
19. Kaino
20. Weepu
21. Donald (by default)
22. Another wing

This is only an OK tight 5 but there's no one else.

I would have Thompson in the starting team. Maybe to replace Read (who was average in this test) or Rodders

Sivivatu is a much better option than the Rok.

The reserves options are very ordinary (except for Kaino) though but who else.

[junior]

DMX said:

Crockett gets his chance at loosehead for me. Back row, very hard decisions, Thomson, Mcaw and Soialo very tempting with Kaino and Read on the bench. Kaino seems to have lost some steam after a strong start to test seaon. In the backs Nonu at 12 and the choice of 13 very tough, Mils or Toeava? i think I go with Mils, he has not been doing business at full back but I think he can fill in at centre for now. I would like to ease Toeava back in with the ultimate goal of him going to full-back . Then back three Jane, Sivi and Gear. Donald and Toeava on the bench.

I'd go with that if we had Hayman at tighthead, but we don't so I think we seriously need Wood0ck's experience. He's got goo pedigree against the Wobblers and was fantastic last time out.

[junior]

Woodcock
Hore
Franks
Ross
Thorn
Kaino
McCaw
Read

Cowan
Carter
Rok
Nonu
Mils
Toeava
Jane

[taniwharugby]

cant believe people want Thompson to start, the only reason he didnt get pinged last night was the game was so loose, tighten it up and he'lll get penalised off the park.

I cant see the merit in too many changes,

I'd keep the pack unchanged, move Nonu back to 12 and Toeava to 13, rok back to 11 and Jane at 14, with Mils staying put by virtue of Sivi's injury,

[Scorz]

taniwharugby said:

cant believe people want Thompson to start, the only reason he didnt get pinged last night was the game was so loose, tighten it up and he'lll get penalised off the park.

I cant see the merit in too many changes,

I'd keep the pack unchanged, move Nonu back to 12 and Toeava to 13, rok back to 11 and Jane at 14, with Mils staying put by virtue of Sivi's injury,

Right on TR, it makes no sense to use the scythe where scissors will do the trick.

3 points, nearly thieved it - and didn't deserve to win. There isn't a big divide, just some basics need attention.

[DMX]

junior said:

DMX said:

Crockett gets his chance at loosehead for me. Back row, very hard decisions, Thomson, Mcaw and Soialo very tempting with Kaino and Read on the bench. Kaino seems to have lost some steam after a strong start to test seaon. In the backs Nonu at 12 and the choice of 13 very tough, Mils or Toeava? i think I go with Mils, he has not been doing business at full back but I think he can fill in at centre for now. I would like to ease Toeava back in with the ultimate goal of him going to full-back . Then back three Jane, Sivi and Gear. Donald and Toeava on the bench.

I'd go with that if we had Hayman at tighthead, but we don't so I think we seriously need Wood0ck's experience. He's got goo pedigree against the Wobblers and was fantastic last time out.

I understand what your saying but I do not believe (many will argue with me) he'll take us to 2011. He gave Baxter a beating and had Smit in previous matches (I thought Smit held his own better yesterday) but I don't believe Crockett would have done any worse and I think he will add a lot more around the park. Woodcock has logged an awful lot of minutes and I think especially with Tialata out you have to throw Crockett in the fire now.

[MajorRage]

Franks, ADM, Woody, Ross, Thorn, Kaino, Rodders, McCaw, Cowan, Carter, Jane, Toeava (wow!!!), Nonu, A.N Other, Mils (purely because of Sivi injury).

[Chris B.]

Quote

There isn't a big divide, just some basics need attention.

That's a bit of a maybe/maybe not question. I said before this game that if we couldn't win this game against the Boks at home, with them on the third match of a road trip - and, especially when we had a pretty fair idea of what they were going to do - then it would be a bad loss.

They have put us away 3-0 and pretty comprehensively in their two home matches. They have a number of areas where they are clearly superior to us - line-outs, kicking game and kick-chase to mention a few.

We've got some work to do to bridge the gap.

[Nepia]

Franks, Hore, Woodcock, Ross, Thorn, Kaino, McCaw, Rodders, Weepu, Carter, Jane, Toeava, Nonu, Gear, Mils.

If I was to be radical I would have Hika leapfrog ADM who would remain on the bench.
Rodney needs to be thier for leadership, ditto for Weepu. I just felt that McCaw was poor in his leadership. Read performed below expectations.

[Yztif]

I am thinking that the Donald experiment has just about reached an end. Agree with Razbra, would try Mils at centre and Jane at Fullback. Slade onto the bench.

Whatever the selectors do they really need to do it now and stick it through to the WC, barring any more changes for injuries.

[Samurai Jack]

MIls has had a dreadful season and what is obvious to me is that the game has evolved and he has been left behind. At fullback we need a tactical kicker and someone who can read the game. Carter had to do two players worth last night and get back to cover as he is the only one who can really win the yards game (maybe when Ali comes back we have two...)

[canefan]

Scorz said:

taniwharugby said:

I cant see the merit in too many changes,

I'd keep the pack unchanged, move Nonu back to 12 and Toeava to 13, rok back to 11 and Jane at 14, with Mils staying put by virtue of Sivi's injury,

Why has Rodders suddenly got the cold shoulder? The pack were so so last night and I thought he would have been useful in the trenches.

This year Nonu's two worst games were when he played 13 outside Luke and Donald. Both games he didn't seem to get his hands on the ball the entire 1st half and seemed to go cold. Put him in at 12 because he deserves it more than anyone else at the moment and either Ice or Mils at 13. I worry that Ice could suffer Donald's starter's curse after playing well off the bench but 10-12 wasn't working last night. CJ has been solid all year and has earned a chance on the big stage. Could someone pls tell me why the 2 games the cartel pick a twin kicking 10/12 combo the 12 spends most of his time running the ball?? xzxidiot2 eusa_think

[KiwiMurph]

In terms of playing South Africa - I know we hate the idea of rotation - but i really think we might have to start looking at playing a specialised team to play the Boks.

My changes for the Boks.

If we can add a winger who is good under the high ball (Rudi Wulf would be the best in NZ at that facet)

A fullback who can kick (Slade?)

A big physical loose forward (Sai'ili/Vito)

Add in Ali Williams and it shall be interesting.

Possibly give De Malmanche a go - I realise his lineout throwing is poor (whose in NZ isnt?) but he would add some physicality.

I know people will say don't push the panic buttons but we have been outgunned by the Boks 3 times this year and it just seems to be we need to start picking players in NZ who give us the best chance of winning.

[Scorz]

Narrowly outgunned though.

I have sort of said this already but, from my own observation, we're behind in re-adapting to the "old laws". It's really that simple in my mind - wrong conditioning, wrong shapes, wrong emphasis on skill sets, wrong game plans. That doesn't just come down to the AB coaches, it's all through NZ rugby coaching/conditioning and I think they might deserve a bit of a break on that. Only to a certain extent though, because having said that, if the conditioning isn't fixed by the beginning of the S15 it's time to look art those set ups and what the aims are for the power of forwards vs the elusivenessticityism of backs.

I think the ELV's produced a more stereotypical generic rugby "shape". Perhaps my best example of this is Joe Rokocoko.

Just a theory. eusa_think

[swapacrate]

We have had a crap year, with crap results. Its the Italy game which makes me cringe, we couldnt do anything in that game. We have carried on the French rubbish for the whole year. Now we have been beaten at home by the Boks and France.

I want wingers at the back who put the fear of god into a team if they kick the ball to us. I want guys with pace. I want guys who can score tries. I want guys who take the gap. If the team who kicks us the ball, slightly gets it wrong, we return it with interest.

Mils is gone as far as Im concerned, he took Cullens place and I didnt like it, but Mils has done the Black jersey proud. Mils at centre is a stop gap, for Conrad and Kahui. Toeava is next cab off the fullback rank. Two years to make the Jersey his. Ranger, Gear Masaga, some winger that will put teams away. We drop the ball anyway, so why not give some of these guys a chance. Rok, Lomu, wilson etc were all young when they hit the scene.

If we want a stop gap centre, bring in laulua for test, it couldnt be worse. Toeava at fullback and leave him there.

Im a big fan of leonard when hes firing, so get him on and leave him there, to get him back to where he was. Cowan is good, but Leonard on form is awesome.

I like the Aled call, hes big and agressive, lets get some grunt in our forward pack. Lets take people on in the forwards. He cant be any worse at throwing. Hika was a good call as well.

We have already had a crap year with the tried and tested crap, are we going to continue with this mediocre stuff, or are we going to move on.

Lets move on.

[dnn]

I have been no fan of Toeava in the past, but I'd be tempted to try him at 13 with Luke at 12. If Carter, Luke and Toeava could get a successful combo that could be the makings of one of the most dangerous backlines we've ever had.

I reckon Toeava should def be in the midfield after witnessing his fantastic cutout passing to put his outsides into space on Sat night. We were looking formidable whenever ball was in hand when he came on.

[Bones]

Geezuz, Thomson comes on for 10-15 minutes and shows he can play 7s rugby very well - shock! And now people want him as a regular AB. Great. Right up there with all the people who thought putting Donald at 12 was a fantastic idea.

Get Nonu back at 12, Toeava to utilise the space from 15 that Mils hasn't been up to this year and the intelligent Mils to shore up centre where his ability is looking better suited these days IMO.

[CTRANG]

Do you remember who played with the "13" jersey in the quarter final vs France in Cardiff ? It was Mils. He was outstanding in 2003 when playing in that position for the Blues but he has never really convinced me at international level as a midfield player. Yes, he could be just a stop gap.

[Bones]

CTRANG said:

Do you remember who played with the "13" jersey in the quarter final vs France in Cardiff ? It was Mils. He was outstanding in 2003 when playing in that position for the Blues but he has never really convinced me at international level as a midfield player. Yes, he could be just a stop gap.

If Smith or Kahui were available, they'd be in there. They're not available.

Anything you recall Muliaina doing wrong in the quarter final?

[rico#1]

Bones said:

CTRANG said:

Do you remember who played with the "13" jersey in the quarter final vs France in Cardiff ? It was Mils. He was outstanding in 2003 when playing in that position for the Blues but he has never really convinced me at international level as a midfield player. Yes, he could be just a stop gap.

If Smith or Kahui were available, they'd be in there. They're not available.

Anything you recall Muliaina doing wrong in the quarter final?

Nope, Mils didn't really do anything wrong in that game or in the other games he played there in 06/07. But in saying that, he hardly set the world on fire playing there and IMO was slightly better than adequate.

[Bones]

So, perhaps, better than Donald is at 12?

[Rancid Schnitzel]

Not sure who Jane has to square root or what he has to do to get selected but surely his time has come now.

Agree with the above backline containing Nonu, Toeava and Jane. This season is already been a writeoff so we have nothing to lose if this fails and everything to gain if they carve up.

[swapacrate]

nonu definitely 12.

Why do we chop and change our centres, why don't we play specialists why do we always have utilities. Sure on the bench utilities.

Just annoys me.

Nonu does have weaknesses, but who doesn't,he has strengths tho. Let's choose best players in the positions, play to our strengths.

Problem with us we try to be to smart for our own good. Let's simplify this game.

[LAKiwi]

dnn said:

I have been no fan of Toeava in the past, but I'd be tempted to try him at 13 with Luke at 12. If Carter, Luke and Toeava could get a successful combo that could be the makings of one of the most dangerous backlines we've ever had.

I reckon Toeava should def be in the midfield after witnessing his fantastic cutout passing to put his outsides into space on Sat night. We were looking formidable whenever ball was in hand when he came on.

That's what I was really impressed with last night. His passing to the wide men - and they were running onto it - was great. And his fend and run down the touchline early on, when he first came on - was very reminiscent of the Italy test where he did the same thing to set up a try.

[AledforPM]

I still think Toeava's niche is as an impact player and damn valuable utility guy off the bench. Why try to make him into a starter when he has somewhat proved time and time again he doesn't have the mental make-up??

I am a big fan of Toeava but I think there is no harm in someone making a living as a staple of the bench around the 55-60 minute mark at All Black level.

Donsteppa - I think your comment about wingers putting the fear of god into teams is indicative of the 'old' style of rugby.. The kick-chase game of SA currently has evolved to a level where it dosn't look to me like it matters how dynamic a winger is because the up and under is always high enough and with the right length for 3-4 boks to be up challenging in the air... This leaves no ability for a dynamic winger to do anything because Du Preez, Brussouw, Habana etc. etc. are in his face from the get-go.

NZ needs to figure out a way to counter this if we are to turn the game back in our favour and allow our backline strengths (running in space) to come to the fore yet again... To me its all about setting a platform up front and attacking with quick ball when its on as the counter-attack from a kick (for the moment anyway) is an obsolete tactic.

Hore seems so effected by his lineout woes that his round the field play has lost authority - I think ADM can provide that combative intensity to the pack that we missed in the opening stages of the games this 3N... At the worst he will be vigorous around the field and inaccurate at lineout time but just hook him and put in Hore if he is terrible...

I agree that Ross is a passenger around the track, good talent but too soft at this stage - combine this with THorn looking like age is finally catching up to him and there is a distinct lack of fire and mongrel in the pack... Franks reminds me of Woodcock when woodcock burst on the scene - love his work...

Finally, I disagree with all those suggesting wilful experimentation - the way this season has gone makes it even more important we at least keep our edge over australia with a win next week... I can handle being secod best for a season or two at most to a very very good SA side.. But we can't use that as a reason for not putting out our best sides against other nations...