23 replies to this topic

[Red Beard]

I can tell you had a lot of fun writing that Bart, I would have been in seventh heaven to! Bang on. Well done that man.

[MN5]

RB, are Barts ruminations on the money or have you got anything more to add ?

[BartMan]

blimmin heck, at the moment there won't be a reserve prop - all votes have gone to Woodcock and Hayman. might need another poll once this has run its course...!!

[MN5]

BartMan said:

blimmin heck, at the moment there won't be a reserve prop - all votes have gone to Woodcock and Hayman. might need another poll once this has run its course...!!

Sommerville's Mum and Dad appear to have voted as well Bart but they'll have to get the extended family to join the fern if he wants to shoot for a spot in the team.

[BartMan]

Just saw that - good bench option I reckon anyway, plays both sides, and is a scrummager first and foremost. Set piece first, floss later.

[MN5]

BartMan said:

Just saw that - good bench option I reckon anyway, plays both sides, and is a scrummager first and foremost. Set piece first, floss later.

Which goes to show how much I ( don't ) know, I voted K Meeuws !

[BartMan]

nah, different folks, different strokes! I like core diuties performed first, and then the other shit later. AS opposed to the other shit first, core duties later (Joe McDonnell).

[LAKiwi]

Depends on what your bench is for.
Sommerville is a great one to have on the bench for an injury. Set piece great, can come on either side if an injury happens.

Whereas Meeuws would be great to come on in the last 10 - when defences tiring - and you want someone to borrow his way to the line!

[Nepia]

Maybe Redbeard could offer some comment, but isn't Meeuws' scrummaging ability underrated by many on the fern?
By using the Reuben Thorne defence of he can't be that bad if x amount of coaches selected him. Well he was selected by 4 different AB coaches (Hart, Smith, Bitchell, Henry), left the ABs rather than was dropped, and performed for a number of years in the French competition - which is supposed to be the top scrumming comp in the world.

[BartMan]

I think it was more of a case of the floss making up for the on and off scrummaging, and the cattle just not being there to replace him. Remember, those same coaches selected JOE MCDONNELL, and if you tell me he could scrum, then there is going to be a fight!! And sure, he was in France, but didn't he move around quite a bit, as opposed to Hoeft, who has been taken in by the club as one of their own - because he can scrum, meaning...

[Nepia]

BartMan said:

I think it was more of a case of the floss making up for the on and off scrummaging, and the cattle just not being there to replace him. Remember, those same coaches selected JOE MCDONNELL, and if you tell me he could scrum, then there is going to be a fight!! And sure, he was in France, but didn't he move around quite a bit, as opposed to Hoeft, who has been taken in by the club as one of their own - because he can scrum, meaning...

Hey, I was just asking the question ... re: Joe McDonnell, he was only selected by one of those four coaches - the one who is batshit bonkers too, and I never said he could scrum, he was really a midfield back in a tubby body. In the 80s he would have stayed there, like John Hainsworth and Arthur Stone.

[Milk]

I was thinking when I voted that it would be hard for Sommerville to get on the bench because he is unlikely to get voted in many people's top 2. There is certainly an arguement for overuling the 3rd most poplular going to the bench rule in his case I think. The guy has the AB record for prop test caps, and was custom made for the bench.

I was also thinking that the quality of the field to vote from, that it is a bit of a sad indictment of AB props over the last decade. Does anyone agree? There was only ever two props that I was going to vote for. The others weren't world class in my opinon. I suppose the early part of the decade was not a high point for the AB front row on the world stage.

[Red Beard]

Milk said:

I was thinking when I voted that it would be hard for Sommerville to get on the bench because he is unlikely to get voted in many people's top 2. There is certainly an arguement for overuling the 3rd most poplular going to the bench rule in his case I think. The guy has the AB record for prop test caps, and was custom made for the bench.

I was also thinking that the quality of the field to vote from, that it is a bit of a sad indictment of AB props over the last decade. Does anyone agree? There was only ever two props that I was going to vote for. The others weren't world class in my opinon. I suppose the early part of the decade was not a high point for the AB front row on the world stage.

Im not sure the front row were as bad as you are making out. Big locks add weight and power to scrums and during that period you talked about we had lightweights like Maling and Maxwell in the engine room. When Henry came along in 2004 he injected Robinson and Williams to lock with Jack which gave use more size in the engine room. We had two poweerr locsk together the night we smashed a massive Bok scrum in Durban 98. Our tight five that night was Hoeft, Oliver, Meeuws, Willis and Robin Brooke. Royce Willis was a huge scrummager, just a shame he was always broken. If Royce had locked with Jack through that era we would have been rock solid.

[Milk]

Red Beard said:

Milk said:

I was thinking when I voted that it would be hard for Sommerville to get on the bench because he is unlikely to get voted in many people's top 2. There is certainly an arguement for overuling the 3rd most poplular going to the bench rule in his case I think. The guy has the AB record for prop test caps, and was custom made for the bench.

I was also thinking that the quality of the field to vote from, that it is a bit of a sad indictment of AB props over the last decade. Does anyone agree? There was only ever two props that I was going to vote for. The others weren't world class in my opinon. I suppose the early part of the decade was not a high point for the AB front row on the world stage.

Im not sure the front row were as bad as you are making out. Big locks add weight and power to scrums and during that period you talked about we had lightweights like Maling and Maxwell in the engine room. When Henry came along in 2004 he injected Robinson and Williams to lock with Jack which gave use more size in the engine room. We had two poweerr locsk together the night we smashed a massive Bok scrum in Durban 98. Our tight five that night was Hoeft, Oliver, Meeuws, Willis and Robin Brooke. Royce Willis was a huge scrummager, just a shame he was always broken. If Royce had locked with Jack through that era we would have been rock solid.

Right. Was there much of a challenge for your vote, family loyalties aside?

I suppose when I look at the depth in some of other positions, the props are pretty easy to choose. The picture changes if you can put in a turn of the century prop like Dowd in, mind you.

There did seem to be a big step up in scrum quality starting from 2003 though, IMO.

[MN5]

Red Beard said:

Milk said:

I was thinking when I voted that it would be hard for Sommerville to get on the bench because he is unlikely to get voted in many people's top 2. There is certainly an arguement for overuling the 3rd most poplular going to the bench rule in his case I think. The guy has the AB record for prop test caps, and was custom made for the bench.

I was also thinking that the quality of the field to vote from, that it is a bit of a sad indictment of AB props over the last decade. Does anyone agree? There was only ever two props that I was going to vote for. The others weren't world class in my opinon. I suppose the early part of the decade was not a high point for the AB front row on the world stage.

Im not sure the front row were as bad as you are making out. Big locks add weight and power to scrums and during that period you talked about we had lightweights like Maling and Maxwell in the engine room. When Henry came along in 2004 he injected Robinson and Williams to lock with Jack which gave use more size in the engine room. We had two poweerr locsk together the night we smashed a massive Bok scrum in Durban 98. Our tight five that night was Hoeft, Oliver, Meeuws, Willis and Robin Brooke. Royce Willis was a huge scrummager, just a shame he was always broken. If Royce had locked with Jack through that era we would have been rock solid.

That's why the Oz scrum got better when Sharpe got replaced by Mark Chisholm isn't it ? much more grunt.

Maling certainly didn't appear to have much grunt or mongrel when he played, lineout specialist and that was pretty much it ! I too thought Willis would have a good long career but it never eventuated....

[Duluth]

When you get certain players dominating a position you are more likely to lose the backups overseas. Then added to that props get better with age then the next level down won't look as strong.

Remember Hayman made his debut way back in 2001 and hardly anyone complained when he missed out on the 2003 World Cup. If he had gone overseas after missing that tournament it would not have been seen as a tragedy.

I have no doubt that if Hayman, Sommerville and Woodcock all had career ending injuries early on, others who are now considered 'lessor' props would have grown into very good Test players

[taniwharugby]

it does make you wonder, while Hayman's class is not in question, would he still have it at International level? he has been away form that scene for 2 full seasons now?

Lucky went away arguably the best 12 in NZ, and a ideal back up 10, he has come back nowhere near either of those... xzxunknown

[Red Beard]

Milk said:

Red Beard said:

Milk said:

I was thinking when I voted that it would be hard for Sommerville to get on the bench because he is unlikely to get voted in many people's top 2. There is certainly an arguement for overuling the 3rd most poplular going to the bench rule in his case I think. The guy has the AB record for prop test caps, and was custom made for the bench.

I was also thinking that the quality of the field to vote from, that it is a bit of a sad indictment of AB props over the last decade. Does anyone agree? There was only ever two props that I was going to vote for. The others weren't world class in my opinon. I suppose the early part of the decade was not a high point for the AB front row on the world stage.

Im not sure the front row were as bad as you are making out. Big locks add weight and power to scrums and during that period you talked about we had lightweights like Maling and Maxwell in the engine room. When Henry came along in 2004 he injected Robinson and Williams to lock with Jack which gave use more size in the engine room. We had two poweerr locsk together the night we smashed a massive Bok scrum in Durban 98. Our tight five that night was Hoeft, Oliver, Meeuws, Willis and Robin Brooke. Royce Willis was a huge scrummager, just a shame he was always broken. If Royce had locked with Jack through that era we would have been rock solid.

Right. Was there much of a challenge for your vote, family loyalties aside?

I suppose when I look at the depth in some of other positions, the props are pretty easy to choose. The picture changes if you can put in a turn of the century prop like Dowd in, mind you.

There did seem to be a big step up in scrum quality starting from 2003 though, IMO.

Woodcock, Hayman starters for me. Torn between Somerville or Meeuws on the bench depending on the circumstances. Another factor was Mitchells attitude which I found bizzare. He wanted the ABs not to try and dominate but conserve energy at scrumtime so they could get wider around the field. Seeing Mitchell had been directly involved with both Waikato and England who both wanted to scrum everything insight, I stryggled to get my head around his strategy.

[BartMan]

Mybe Mitch was thinking TOO much.

[Red Beard]

BartMan said:

Mybe Mitch was thinking TOO much.

We also had the fascination of shipping every scarp of ball to Jonah directly off every phase from 99 onwards which did nothing for our tight forwards development. I like the way Henry got back to basics in 2004.

[BartMan]

rugby pretty much always has been, and always will be (90% of the time anyway), won up front by having the meanest forward pack. Then the blouses decide the margin, so if you have good forwards and bad backs, you win by a little bit. If you have good forwards and brilliant backs, you smash the fuck out of the opposition.

IMNSHO

[BartMan]

have added a third vote to the poll, so you can vote for your two starters, and then your bench option.

so head back when your're ready...

[BartMan]

bump, bump, bumpty bump - a third vote now...