just pick the one please...!
read article here - http://thesilverfern...cade-blindside-
Edited by BartMan, 12 January 2010 - 11:40 AM.
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#1
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Posted 12 January 2010 - 10:52 AM
time to vote for the man in the black 6, this'll be good - Thorne v Collins v Kaino v Randell...
just pick the one please...!
read article here - http://thesilverfern...cade-blindside-
just pick the one please...!
read article here - http://thesilverfern...cade-blindside-
Irish commentator - "the worst Australian side I have ever seen. Robbie Deans does not have a backup player in almost every position"
#2
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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:15 AM
Only one guy in the running for me....J Collins. Please ignore my Wellington bias and hear me out. No one was more feared around 2004-07 than the mighty JC, he really left some stout runners thinking "Whoa what the fuck was that ?!?!?" his nickname was also appropriately "Guinness" ( think about it )
History will probably judge JC as a "very good" as opposed to truly "great" AB but he certainly formed what in my opinion was the best loose trio in the world with RC and RS. He had intangibles that few forwards posessed. If he had a few weaknesses I feel that maybe he could have pumped the legs a bit harder in the tackle at times ? no doubting his intimidating defence which was second to none.
As for the others ? I'll admit Thorne obviously had some hidden qualities ( cue someone from Canterbury explaining better than me )
Randell was pretty bloody good in the six jersey in 97 but was he any good any other year ? playing 8 didn't help.
Kaino misses out from too few tests, he's a "nicer" JC with more skills really but he could make this decade his own, he has the talent.
History will probably judge JC as a "very good" as opposed to truly "great" AB but he certainly formed what in my opinion was the best loose trio in the world with RC and RS. He had intangibles that few forwards posessed. If he had a few weaknesses I feel that maybe he could have pumped the legs a bit harder in the tackle at times ? no doubting his intimidating defence which was second to none.
As for the others ? I'll admit Thorne obviously had some hidden qualities ( cue someone from Canterbury explaining better than me )
Randell was pretty bloody good in the six jersey in 97 but was he any good any other year ? playing 8 didn't help.
Kaino misses out from too few tests, he's a "nicer" JC with more skills really but he could make this decade his own, he has the talent.
Edited by MN5, 12 January 2010 - 11:47 AM.
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Posted 12 January 2010 - 11:44 AM
MN5, I quite agree.
JC by a good margin over Thorne. Thorne is maligned as the ruck inspector, suitcase, etc. etc. etc. etc., but a post by Mr Mike detailing a blow by blow of what Thorne did in one test should've put that to rest.
Did Randell play blindside in this decade? He was a good one, but being shuffled to eight and then into the captaincy probably stuffed him right up.
Kaino, too soon, I believe he'll develop into as good as JC and his battle with other sixes will be interesting over the coming years.
JC by a good margin over Thorne. Thorne is maligned as the ruck inspector, suitcase, etc. etc. etc. etc., but a post by Mr Mike detailing a blow by blow of what Thorne did in one test should've put that to rest.
Did Randell play blindside in this decade? He was a good one, but being shuffled to eight and then into the captaincy probably stuffed him right up.
Kaino, too soon, I believe he'll develop into as good as JC and his battle with other sixes will be interesting over the coming years.
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Posted 12 January 2010 - 12:05 PM
Randell was 6 in 2000 and 7 in 2001 if I recall ?
I've personally never denied that Thorn must have been more than decent as more astute judges than me picked him for the ABs ( Yes I know cantabrians FOUR different AB coaches, yawn ) but he doesn't get in ahead of JC.
I've personally never denied that Thorn must have been more than decent as more astute judges than me picked him for the ABs ( Yes I know cantabrians FOUR different AB coaches, yawn ) but he doesn't get in ahead of JC.
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#5
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Posted 12 January 2010 - 02:24 PM
Yeah Collins for me, despite the fact that he is merely very good in AB terms.
Randell is one of the great underachievers in AB history and as others allude, not his fault. Had it in him to be a great blindside but was fucked over first by Hart and then by Mitch/Deans. Hve heardd him talk about their coaching regime - there's a great book there if h's honest enough to write it.
Randell is one of the great underachievers in AB history and as others allude, not his fault. Had it in him to be a great blindside but was fucked over first by Hart and then by Mitch/Deans. Hve heardd him talk about their coaching regime - there's a great book there if h's honest enough to write it.
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Posted 12 January 2010 - 02:38 PM
No disgrace in being "Merely very good" though. As this series continues and we have our votes there'll be a few more in that category. 7 and 10 will be excluded obviously !
I dunno if Taine would ever have been a "great". Now I look back anyone could have looked good in the 6 jersey given the quality of the other 7 in the pack....
I dunno if Taine would ever have been a "great". Now I look back anyone could have looked good in the 6 jersey given the quality of the other 7 in the pack....
Walt Kowalski: Yea? I blow a hole in your face and then I go in the house and I sleep like a baby. You can count on that. We used to stack fucks like you five feet high in Korea, use you for sandbags.
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Posted 12 January 2010 - 04:17 PM
Collins and then daylight - despite the fact that some Cantab tragics will throw a vote Thorne's way. Thorne deserves to be a nominee for his form around 2006/2007 no question (2002 - 20003 MEH).
MN5: Taine had all the potential to be a great - he probably would be if Hart had kept him at 6, if he'd been allowed to build on his 1997 form. If Gilbert had got the top job and Smith the assistant in 2000 things could have been different. Under Gilbert he would have been captain and blindside. I don't get your going by the 7 anyone could have looked good at 6. Collins was good on his own merits, and he probably helped in allowing McCaw to play his style of game.
Edit: Bart I just read your ratings - you balls up Taine's defence rating. His defensive workrate was outstanding in 2002/2003 (probably due to the fact he was in a cabbage team for the Highlanders). I think you're rating him on his pre 2000 defence for this decade's team. Of course doesn't change the fact the JC is the clear winner here.
MN5: Taine had all the potential to be a great - he probably would be if Hart had kept him at 6, if he'd been allowed to build on his 1997 form. If Gilbert had got the top job and Smith the assistant in 2000 things could have been different. Under Gilbert he would have been captain and blindside. I don't get your going by the 7 anyone could have looked good at 6. Collins was good on his own merits, and he probably helped in allowing McCaw to play his style of game.
Edit: Bart I just read your ratings - you balls up Taine's defence rating. His defensive workrate was outstanding in 2002/2003 (probably due to the fact he was in a cabbage team for the Highlanders). I think you're rating him on his pre 2000 defence for this decade's team. Of course doesn't change the fact the JC is the clear winner here.
Edited by Nepia, 12 January 2010 - 04:21 PM.
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Posted 13 January 2010 - 07:36 AM
Nepia said:
Collins and then daylight - despite the fact that some Cantab tragics will throw a vote Thorne's way. Thorne deserves to be a nominee for his form around 2006/2007 no question (2002 - 20003 MEH).
MN5: Taine had all the potential to be a great - he probably would be if Hart had kept him at 6, if he'd been allowed to build on his 1997 form. If Gilbert had got the top job and Smith the assistant in 2000 things could have been different. Under Gilbert he would have been captain and blindside. I don't get your going by the 7 anyone could have looked good at 6. Collins was good on his own merits, and he probably helped in allowing McCaw to play his style of game.
Edit: Bart I just read your ratings - you balls up Taine's defence rating. His defensive workrate was outstanding in 2002/2003 (probably due to the fact he was in a cabbage team for the Highlanders). I think you're rating him on his pre 2000 defence for this decade's team. Of course doesn't change the fact the JC is the clear winner here.
MN5: Taine had all the potential to be a great - he probably would be if Hart had kept him at 6, if he'd been allowed to build on his 1997 form. If Gilbert had got the top job and Smith the assistant in 2000 things could have been different. Under Gilbert he would have been captain and blindside. I don't get your going by the 7 anyone could have looked good at 6. Collins was good on his own merits, and he probably helped in allowing McCaw to play his style of game.
Edit: Bart I just read your ratings - you balls up Taine's defence rating. His defensive workrate was outstanding in 2002/2003 (probably due to the fact he was in a cabbage team for the Highlanders). I think you're rating him on his pre 2000 defence for this decade's team. Of course doesn't change the fact the JC is the clear winner here.
Haha forgot Randell was a bay boy Nepia !
We'll never really know due to the shit he got from the coaches but I just felt that while he obviously had talent, Randell was a bit overrated to be honest. He didn't have amazing skills, he wasn't a blockbuster in attack or defence and didn't seem a particularly inspirational leader.
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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:08 PM
I think I am tainted by the fact that after one Super 14 match, or 12 or whatever it was, Randell's stats read NO TACKLES. After 80 minutes. Red Beard has the whole story on that one.
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Posted 13 January 2010 - 12:20 PM
BartMan said:
I think I am tainted by the fact that after one Super 14 match, or 12 or whatever it was, Randell's stats read NO TACKLES. After 80 minutes. Red Beard has the whole story on that one.
....and the fact he could only do TWO chinups gives me the shits as well ! ( same story )
Jerry Collins on the other hand tried some chin ups once but gyms won't let him do it cos he bent the pull up bar to the ground.
Edited by MN5, 13 January 2010 - 12:23 PM.
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Posted 13 January 2010 - 03:32 PM
Quote
Haha forgot Randell was a bay boy Nepia !
Quote
He didn't have amazing skills, he wasn't a blockbuster in attack or defence and didn't seem a particularly inspirational leader.
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I think I am tainted by the fact that after one Super 14 match, or 12 or whatever it was, Randell's stats read NO TACKLES. After 80 minutes. Red Beard has the whole story on that one
I remember that thread I think - one awful game shouldn't define his 2000s career though - find some highlights of the 2003 S12 and look at his defensive work.
Quote
....and the fact he could only do TWO chinups gives me the shits as well ! ( same story
No one denies that he was a lazy bugger who didn't like to train. If he had come through today he would have had to have hit the weights a bit harder, after all he did come through in the amateur days (first game for Otago in 1992 I think.)
"it is not for me a question of whether Nepia was the best fullback in history. It is a question of which of the others is fit to loose the laces of his Cotton Oxford boots."
Rennie, Joseph, Russell, Penney, Hammett. The Mickey Mouse Canes keep rolling on.
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Posted 13 January 2010 - 03:45 PM
Nepia said:
What are you implying? In fact I probably rate him harder because he was a dirty traitor!
It was his skills that got him onto the ABs - he wasn't a blockbuster in attack, but then he shouldn't have needed to be, his skill set should have been used. If you doubt his skill just remember who threw the final pass to Jonah in 2000's greatest game of all time. Regarding the leadership - he was crap early on and shouldn't have been promoted so early, but he was pretty good later in his career (that Baabaa game I mentioned being a prime example and the fact that Otago were halfway decent when he was around and then fell to pieces over the next few years).
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I remember that thread I think - one awful game shouldn't define his 2000s career though - find some highlights of the 2003 S12 and look at his defensive work.
)
No one denies that he was a lazy bugger who didn't like to train. If he had come through today he would have had to have hit the weights a bit harder, after all he did come through in the amateur days (first game for Otago in 1992 I think.)
It was his skills that got him onto the ABs - he wasn't a blockbuster in attack, but then he shouldn't have needed to be, his skill set should have been used. If you doubt his skill just remember who threw the final pass to Jonah in 2000's greatest game of all time. Regarding the leadership - he was crap early on and shouldn't have been promoted so early, but he was pretty good later in his career (that Baabaa game I mentioned being a prime example and the fact that Otago were halfway decent when he was around and then fell to pieces over the next few years).
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I remember that thread I think - one awful game shouldn't define his 2000s career though - find some highlights of the 2003 S12 and look at his defensive work.
)
No one denies that he was a lazy bugger who didn't like to train. If he had come through today he would have had to have hit the weights a bit harder, after all he did come through in the amateur days (first game for Otago in 1992 I think.)
He was in the right place, right time to chuck the ball to Jonah, good on him for that but did he ever nail drop goals for the ABs like his lookalike Zinny ? I will admit his leadership did improve later on. First game in 92 ? shit he woulda been only 17 then !
Walt Kowalski: Yea? I blow a hole in your face and then I go in the house and I sleep like a baby. You can count on that. We used to stack fucks like you five feet high in Korea, use you for sandbags.
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Posted 13 January 2010 - 03:53 PM
MN5 said:
He was in the right place, right time to chuck the ball to Jonah, good on him for that but did he ever nail drop goals for the ABs like his lookalike Zinny ? I will admit his leadership did improve later on. First game in 92 ? shit he woulda been only 17 then !
Yep, I think he was 17, first year at Otago, made the Otago team before Kronfeld actually. I was surprised he didn't get a run for Hawkes Bay the previous year actually.
I'm actually dumbfounded that anyone else has received votes in this poll. I'd have thought that JC would get 100% (I thought 6,7,10 would be no contests) but I didn't allow for two Cantab tragics (Canerbry and one other I assume) and surprisingly two Auckland tragics - as much as I like Jerome he's not at JC status yet.
"it is not for me a question of whether Nepia was the best fullback in history. It is a question of which of the others is fit to loose the laces of his Cotton Oxford boots."
Rennie, Joseph, Russell, Penney, Hammett. The Mickey Mouse Canes keep rolling on.
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Posted 13 January 2010 - 10:30 PM
Nepia said:
There was a bunch of skill involved in that pass - do you think that Thorne would have thrown that pass? I doubt it - I remember one great game Thorne had against the Reds because he threw two great passes, it sticks out like a sore thumb. We can't compare his skill level with Zinny though because on Planet Zinny, but he was far more skilled than most players running around.
Yep, I think he was 17, first year at Otago, made the Otago team before Kronfeld actually. I was surprised he didn't get a run for Hawkes Bay the previous year actually.
I'm actually dumbfounded that anyone else has received votes in this poll. I'd have thought that JC would get 100% (I thought 6,7,10 would be no contests) but I didn't allow for two Cantab tragics (Canerbry and one other I assume) and surprisingly two Auckland tragics - as much as I like Jerome he's not at JC status yet.
Yep, I think he was 17, first year at Otago, made the Otago team before Kronfeld actually. I was surprised he didn't get a run for Hawkes Bay the previous year actually.
I'm actually dumbfounded that anyone else has received votes in this poll. I'd have thought that JC would get 100% (I thought 6,7,10 would be no contests) but I didn't allow for two Cantab tragics (Canerbry and one other I assume) and surprisingly two Auckland tragics - as much as I like Jerome he's not at JC status yet.
Definitely a bit of skill there but to say Randell would have been a "great" based on that ? I'm dubious Nepia !
Yeah I'm surprised at a couple of votes as well but to be fair JC ain't quite in Richie or DCs league.
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Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:16 AM
Hahaha, Randell the great...
Richie played blindside a bit last year, when they experimented with the left/right, I'd have voted for him...
Richie played blindside a bit last year, when they experimented with the left/right, I'd have voted for him...
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#16
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Posted 14 January 2010 - 10:37 AM
Quote
Originally Posted by Nepia
There was a bunch of skill involved in that pass - do you think that Thorne would have thrown that pass? I doubt it - I remember one great game Thorne had against the Reds because he threw two great passes, it sticks out like a sore thumb. We can't compare his skill level with Zinny though because on Planet Zinny, but he was far more skilled than most players running around.
Yep, I think he was 17, first year at Otago, made the Otago team before Kronfeld actually. I was surprised he didn't get a run for Hawkes Bay the previous year actually.
I'm actually dumbfounded that anyone else has received votes in this poll. I'd have thought that JC would get 100% (I thought 6,7,10 would be no contests) but I didn't allow for two Cantab tragics (Canerbry and one other I assume) and surprisingly two Auckland tragics - as much as I like Jerome he's not at JC status yet.
Definitely a bit of skill there but to say Randell would have been a "great" based on that ? I'm dubious Nepia !
Yeah I'm surprised at a couple of votes as well but to be fair JC ain't quite in Richie or DCs league.
There was a bunch of skill involved in that pass - do you think that Thorne would have thrown that pass? I doubt it - I remember one great game Thorne had against the Reds because he threw two great passes, it sticks out like a sore thumb. We can't compare his skill level with Zinny though because on Planet Zinny, but he was far more skilled than most players running around.
Yep, I think he was 17, first year at Otago, made the Otago team before Kronfeld actually. I was surprised he didn't get a run for Hawkes Bay the previous year actually.
I'm actually dumbfounded that anyone else has received votes in this poll. I'd have thought that JC would get 100% (I thought 6,7,10 would be no contests) but I didn't allow for two Cantab tragics (Canerbry and one other I assume) and surprisingly two Auckland tragics - as much as I like Jerome he's not at JC status yet.
Definitely a bit of skill there but to say Randell would have been a "great" based on that ? I'm dubious Nepia !
Yeah I'm surprised at a couple of votes as well but to be fair JC ain't quite in Richie or DCs league.
It's not that he's (JC) in Carter or McCaws league but that the competition were just far behind. Thorne just wasn't good enough, and Kaino didn't come on early enough.
"it is not for me a question of whether Nepia was the best fullback in history. It is a question of which of the others is fit to loose the laces of his Cotton Oxford boots."
Rennie, Joseph, Russell, Penney, Hammett. The Mickey Mouse Canes keep rolling on.
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Posted 14 January 2010 - 11:25 AM
Nepia said:
Could have been a great, not would have been there MN5. I'm not saying he is and anyway I voted for JC.
It's not that he's (JC) in Carter or McCaws league but that the competition were just far behind. Thorne just wasn't good enough, and Kaino didn't come on early enough.
It's not that he's (JC) in Carter or McCaws league but that the competition were just far behind. Thorne just wasn't good enough, and Kaino didn't come on early enough.
Yeah I'm not surprised Thorn has a couple so far, there's a few on here who sung his praises a fair bit.
Walt Kowalski: Yea? I blow a hole in your face and then I go in the house and I sleep like a baby. You can count on that. We used to stack fucks like you five feet high in Korea, use you for sandbags.
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