69 replies to this topic

[DMX]

They are in a pretty tough spot now? I would think they have to bring Beast back, and even consider Bismark Duplessis (if fit?) , not sure srummaging can be much worse even with Smit at prop but they desperately need more mobility in font row. I think they have to go for a Becker/Roussow combo, and give Matfield a break. They will have been dissapointed with the back-row especially Louw who played so well in previous tests. Maybe potgeiter can keep up better with the pace. I would think they have to pick Pineaar , Cowan was crap but they could not take advantage. I thought Kirchner played the best I've seen him for Boks I would leave him in but put JDV at 12 and put Hougaard on the wing though Aplon would probably be ok too.

[davidav]

What do the Boks do now?

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Because I think the ABs have a few more gears in them yet.

Edited by Tim, 11 July 2010 - 06:33 AM.
Keep the trash talk for somewhere else. This is an analysis thread.

[Bones]

DMX said:

They are in a pretty tough spot now? I would think they have to bring Beast back, and even consider Bismark Duplessis (if fit?) , not sure srummaging can be much worse even with Smit at prop but they desperately need more mobility in font row. I think they have to go for a Becker/Roussow combo, and give Matfield a break. They will have been dissapointed with the back-row especially Louw who played so well in previous tests. Maybe potgeiter can keep up better with the pace. I would think they have to pick Pineaar , Cowan was crap but they could not take advantage. I thought Kirchner played the best I've seen him for Boks I would leave him in but put JDV at 12 and put Hougaard on the wing though Aplon would probably be ok too.

Yeah, Louw was a bit of a let-down. I don't see Potgeiter as the answer though, reminds me of early Thomson (and in that regard would be a top addition to their 7's team). Probably want to stick with Louw and let him get used to the extra intensity, or with the added mobility of Bekker they might want to consider chucking Rossouw on the blindside and Burger to open if he wasn't already.

Kirchner did play well, but Olivier was quiet and I think the Boks missed having de Villiers organisation in the midfield. Put him back there and give Aplon his shot, he hasn't really put a foot wrong yet and Olivier may be a better option to bring from the bench rather than starting.

[ploughboy]

boks will muscle up big time.if you thought last nite was physical wait till next week.

spies i thought was poor.reminds me of the saying looks like Tarzan plays like jane.

[ACT Crusader]

Pineaar for Januarie would be the first change.

Bekker the 'forced' change.

I think an Aplon/Kirchner duo is far too inexperienced and if played I'd expect us to go there all night long.

I'd be showing plenty of tape to Spies and Louw and the large number of times Burger was a lone man at the tackle area

[MiketheSnow]

I'd be practicing the grubber kick all week, not the garryowen.

[Milk]

I think they were just complacent and out-passioned. As an All Blacks fan I'm worried about next week still.

[Cactus Jack]

First thing they need to do is get a coach that can come up with more than just an up and under to try to beat the All Blacks . I thought half their problem was they did the same thing all night long and the All Blacks were just waiting for it .

[dingo]

I'd be wondering if father time and the intensity is catching up with a few key players in the forwards, such John Smit and Victor Matfield (30 something with close to 100 tests each). Can these guys realistically make it to the RWC next year and is it time to start thinking about transition? A problem as they are both leaders as well as good players.

[mariner4life]

Dunno Dingo, Matfield had a fair old game.

I think they looked pretty dangerous when they kept the ball for a bit in the 2nd half. But they need to get more venom from their runners, and move the ball a little more than 1 short pass to a pod of forwards (dare i say it take a leaf out of our book). And maybe kick a little less ball away.

Probably a fair amount of time on the set piece as well.

[The NightMayor]

First off the need to find a new lock...Then find some controlled aggression in their runners.Have to agree with Mariner and say they need to kick less,the up and unders clearly ain't doing it for them this time around...Next week is gonna be interesting to see if the A.B's can keep up the tempo and aggression and to see if the Boks can change their game plan...

[Razbra]

I thought Matfield tried really hard in a losing battle actually. He was the last line on several occasions. Smit on the other hand looked old and tired. Not saying he's past it but he certainly wasn't up for it last night. His post match interview was a pretty chilly affair, but then Ian Smith only talked about the AB's. Butch James is a waste of fucking space. Drop him out of the squad now! He and Botha have nothing left to offer Test rugby.

Louw, Olivier, Bekker(when he came on), Steyn and especially Spies were just average. That guy has all the athleticism in the world but get in his grill and he shrivels up faster than a 1 inch cock in an ice bath. Juan Smith was sorely missed. Maybe more so than the champion their halfback.

I think too much time has been invested in the up an under and feeding off the opposing teams mistakes to the point that they have let other areas suffer. The scrum is bad. Not terrible but far from good. We had it almost on a string last night. We monstered them.

The backs were disorganised, not threatening in any capacity other than possible intercepts which they seemed to be going for constantly. The chase that has become a real focus their play was lacklustre. But the up and under's continued. Even when it must have become apparent that tactic had been defused.

It puts into perspective how good a player FdP is. It also highlights the fragility of the Bok set up. Not too dissimilar to our own troubles finding a viable DC back up. Though as mentioned last night DC didn't need to shine in order for us to win, and win convincingly. Steyn does not have the creativity or the confidence to operate without FdP. Morne's ability to improvise goes as far as a snap for goal.

I don't think we can claim the demise of the Bok LO. Michael Jordan had off nights too. But it has been years since I have seen it dominated. "Dominated" is not too strong a word either. Another nail in the coffin of their confidence.

Peter Pumpkin Eater has to show his coaching is actually coaching now and not a series of fortuitous flukes. He has to show there is more to the BOK game than a kick and chase. He has to make the correct selections too. Pienaar must start at HB. JdV is a centre and a world class one so drop Olivier and put a wing on the wing. Give your senior players a rocket. Tell Burger to actually show up!

Edited by Razbra, 11 July 2010 - 11:46 AM.
Edit: cheers to mod for moving this, didn't see the thread

[Nepia]

Quote

Tell Burger to actually show up!

WTF??? Burger was one of the Boks best last night - he was the one who actually looked like he gived a shit.

[Duluth]

I thought they went alright when they chose to hold the ball for extended periods. The kick and hope tactic did not work and the current laws reward the team that plays the most rugby, not waits for the mistakes.

If the hold the ball for phases and their forwards lift their game marginally they could win in Wellington. Although I think the AB's have some improvement in them too

[Razbra]

Nepia said:

WTF??? Burger was one of the Boks best last night - he was the one who actually looked like he gived a shit.

I thought he was well below his best. Maybe Im being hyper critical, I don't remember seeing any fight from the guy at all. I'll watch it again later and maybe you're right.

[Nepia]

Razbra said:

I thought he was well below his best. Maybe Im being hyper critical, I don't remember seeing any fight from the guy at all. I'll watch it again later and maybe you're right.

I'm usually down on the guy but he never stopped trying (tackling, carting the ball etc) - maybe I'll watch Matfield again because I thought he was poor, got done a few times in the lineout and largely ineffective around the park.

[rustycruiser]

If I where in charge, I would make minimal personal changes. I would slot Danie Rossouw into the 4 jersey, Ruan Pienaar into the 9 jersey, Jean de villiers into the 12 jersey, and throw Francois Hougaard on the wing. There aren't too many other full back or wing options in NZ in the squad due to the shambolic selection of 5 centers in the touring party. I don't think the players are that bad collectively. They just played like absolute shit. I would then organize more than the two run thoroughs they had last week, and practise getting loosies to the ruck in a timely fashion, and the scrum half getting quick ball and making a decision rather than taking so much time and allowing the defense to set. Basics need to be emphasized.

Unfortunately, PdV will not drop Januarie, and will slot Aplon in rather than Hougaard. Still an upgrade over Jean.

[shark]

Januarie has to go. As someone said, Cowan was ordinary last night and Januarie still didn't look good. Piennar is twice the player Januarie is and probably the second-best halfback in world rugby anyway and the sooner they pick him, the sooner they'll get some go-forward from their halfback.

Rossouw and Bekker on the bench was just plain dumb. Rossouw is a grunter of the oldest form is SA rugby and if he can't command a starting spot at lock, there is no room for him in a test squad. Bekker should start for Botha next week regardless, which might save Rossouws' bench spot for now. The loosies just need a wind-up, but I'd have Kankowski on the bench as insurance if available - is he fit and in the squad??

Kirchner had a good game I thought, while Habana and JDV just didn't see the pill and there aren't any other top wingers in their squad so the back 3 should stay. Fourie was ok, Olivier a bit quiet, but a lot of these guys will improve after a rev-up. It's not like they're going to start the utterly talentless Butch James ahead of Steyn.

I know fuck all about the front row, except to say that they were poor last night and something needs to change. The Beast couldn't harm their chances if available. Again, a week of winding-up from the coaching staff and they'll certainly improve.

[taniwharugby]

get rid of Januarie, give the ball to Kirschner more, they wont have to worry about Botha any longer.

I think a tweak or 2 and they will be right, there is not alot in it.

The AB's were not perfect, but played well and shut the Boks down at every turn, if they get a bit of go forward they'll be fine.

Little to early to talk of thier demise for me.

[shark]

While we're still a long way from cleaning them up two weeks in a row, the thing that cracks me up is all the punters who had written us off. Anyone who didn't think it was possible we could do the same thing to them that they did to us last year was blind or just plain thick. They're well and truly on the back foot now and while there is a chance they could turn it around, it's more likely we'll drive home the advantage next week, albeit in a tighter game. Up 2-0 and with confidence and motivation high, we could snatch a win in SA.

In fact, if we go up 2-0 next week, I actually fear for their chances in Brisbane the week after in the third test of a tough road trip against a hungry Australia.

The 3N is all about home advantage and this has only been accentuated by the home advantage offered by 3 test series vs each opponent.

[El Toro supremo]

Bad day at the office for the Boks - no need to panic.
For next week I would play Pienaar for January - wont happen.
I would move JdV into centre position for Olivier although I do not think Jean is in great form but I will still give it a shot.
Francois Hougaard on the wing is a must - the guy is a gamebreaker of note.
Danie in for Bakkies.
Damn we missed Juan Smith desperately - nearly as much as FdP.
Kirchner definitely had his best game in a Bok jersey so I will stick to him for now with Francois Steyn ' not available'
SA kick and chase game is not the same without FdP - cant be compared to the rubbish dished up by Januarie.

If this amended team fire they should at least be competitive for the remainder of the comp.
For next year to dominate we will need FdP, Francois Steyn, Bismark, Juan Smith, Brussow and even the Beast back. All of this is likely so - we will have to do with what we have at the moment.
Another bigger picture question is whether Smit will make it to next year?? I cant see it - wish I can but I cant.

[Blue]

DMX said:

They are in a pretty tough spot now? I would think they have to bring Beast back, and even consider Bismark Duplessis (if fit?) , not sure srummaging can be much worse even with Smit at prop but they desperately need more mobility in font row. I think they have to go for a Becker/Roussow combo, and give Matfield a break. They will have been dissapointed with the back-row especially Louw who played so well in previous tests. Maybe potgeiter can keep up better with the pace. I would think they have to pick Pineaar , Cowan was crap but they could not take advantage. I thought Kirchner played the best I've seen him for Boks I would leave him in but put JDV at 12 and put Hougaard on the wing though Aplon would probably be ok too.

Wow. Writing us off already?

Here's what we need to "Do Now"

Drop Januarie for Pienaar (won't happen)
Move Jdv to 12 and start Aplon on the wing
Start Bekker with Matfield (for 50 - he was out only tight forward who the his body around), bring Rossouw on after 50 for Matfield.

Then tactically stop kicking the ball away and most importantly:

BRING THE FUCKEN KITCHEN SINK AND MAN UP.

I would give Louw another run. He is better than that. Spies has often gone missing when the handbags are out. This will be a wakeup call. There is the option of starting Rossouw at 8....

[Blue]

Duluth said:

I thought they went alright when they chose to hold the ball for extended periods. The kick and hope tactic did not work and the current laws reward the team that plays the most rugby, not waits for the mistakes.

Which is exactly what I find totally baffling.

The coaches threw the Bulls and Stormers game plan out the window and went back to last year's game plan.

Maybe our coaches don't have faith in themselves and the players to execute. Tactically we played 100% into the Blacks hands. Kick the thing back to Muliana and Jane at every opportunity. Fucking brilliant.

[Blue]

shark said:

Januarie has to go. As someone said, Cowan was ordinary last night and Januarie still didn't look good. Piennar is twice the player Januarie is and probably the second-best halfback in world rugby anyway and the sooner they pick him, the sooner they'll get some go-forward from their halfback.

Rossouw and Bekker on the bench was just plain dumb. Rossouw is a grunter of the oldest form is SA rugby and if he can't command a starting spot at lock, there is no room for him in a test squad. Bekker should start for Botha next week regardless, which might save Rossouws' bench spot for now. The loosies just need a wind-up, but I'd have Kankowski on the bench as insurance if available - is he fit and in the squad??

Kirchner had a good game I thought, while Habana and JDV just didn't see the pill and there aren't any other top wingers in their squad so the back 3 should stay. Fourie was ok, Olivier a bit quiet, but a lot of these guys will improve after a rev-up. It's not like they're going to start the utterly talentless Butch James ahead of Steyn.

I know fuck all about the front row, except to say that they were poor last night and something needs to change. The Beast couldn't harm their chances if available. Again, a week of winding-up from the coaching staff and they'll certainly improve.

Januarie is PdV's darling. I will be dumbfounded if he drops him. He has defended him tooth and nail. Dropping him now will put egg all over PdV's face.

Spies has been called a pussy by a poster here but if he is one, then Kankowski is his lesbian twin. Kanko goes to shits when the handbags come out. We have seen that time and time again. The best SA 8 to play the All Blacks is Duane Vermeulen. Shit.

We miss Juan Smith for his physicality and I full expect him to start on the return leg.

Olivier has now been found out for the umpteenth time - I suspect this is the end of his Bok career. Jdv should start and de Jongh should be on the bench.

The scrum improved when BJ Botha came on. Steenkamp struggled because du Plessis struggled. Jannie has some serious technique issues. He looked good in the Super 14 but was shown up again.

John Smit looks slow and fat and plays like he is slow and fat. Unfortunately he is the slow and fat captain. He is fatter now that he playes hooker. Figure that out. He and Januarie must have some Pizza slice dare between them.

[Blue]

El Toro supremo said:

Another bigger picture question is whether Smit will make it to next year?? I cant see it - wish I can but I cant.

No coach will have the balls to drop him but when Bismarck comes back the pressure is going to start.

I am very disappointed with John. He has always had great mental strength but for one thing he has let his body go. HE looks complete out of sorts and can't keep up.

[Blue]

Nepia said:

I'm usually down on the guy but he never stopped trying (tackling, carting the ball etc) - maybe I'll watch Matfield again because I thought he was poor, got done a few times in the lineout and largely ineffective around the park.

He lost two in his throw and they were pies coming at him (see my complaints about Smit).

Matfield and Schalk were the only of our forwards who put their bodies on the line.

Wow, five posts in a row from me. Where's my valium?

[Nepia]

Blue: How would Burger go as an 8? He gets through a tonne of work and you have other flankers.
Me, I'm happy for you to keep selecting Spies. Kankowski may go to shit but he's on for longer than Spies is.

Your tactics were the winning tactics from last year. El toro told us the Boks would have new ones to sort us out, but they didn't.
I guess the Boks will keep the ball in hand a bit more next week, but in saying that, there's always the chance of turnovers.
You'll be a lot better if you select a wing on the wing this week. JDV is a great midfielder but an average wing.
Januarie never looks as bad to me as he does to Saffas - the whole team was cabbage but he seems to shoulder the blame. Is Ruan Pienaar in the team, and will he start at 9 do you think?

[DMX]

[quote name='Blue']Wow. Writing us off already?

QUOTE]

Where did I write you off?

[DMX]

Blue said:

Which is exactly what I find totally baffling.

The coaches threw the Bulls and Stormers game plan out the window and went back to last year's game plan.

Maybe our coaches don't have faith in themselves and the players to execute. Tactically we played 100% into the Blacks hands. Kick the thing back to Muliana and Jane at every opportunity. Fucking brilliant.

It was pretty obvious you would try and kick on our back three because it worked well for Bulls against Crusaders and we fielded 2/3rds of the same back 3 as last year. Then I think you were lulled into it a little in the first few minutes when the ball bounced of Mils chest but after that we dealt with everything. I would expect the adjustments to come next week.

[Toddy]

The boks definitely don't need to panic. They're missing a few key players at the moment. It'll be interesting next week to see if the All Blacks can play with the same intensity this Saturday. It'll be hard to keep that up and I bet there are some sore bodies today. It was pretty funny in the 2nd half when the boks kept at the up and under. I thought they were making some good ground close to the ruck in the 2nd half but they just kicked too much ball away. Thought a couple of Morne's drop goals were a waste of good territory to. He seemed clueless without FDP.