36 replies to this topic

[dion]

There is now no denying it. The Boks have been well and truly beaten three consecutive weeks in a row. From world beaters to dead beats in under a year, the post mortem on Springbok rugby must begin. Whinge if you will about calls that went against the Boks but there is no doubting that is back to the drawing board to redraft new formula’s for a route back to winning rugby.

One thing that has been evident on this away tri nations leg, is that our senior Boks were haplessly outplayed and outclassed by both the Kiwi’s and the Ozzies. Surely now, harsh changes need to be made and new game plans need to be invented. A relatively young Ozzie team with new caps in their ranks put an experienced Bok team to the sword.

I have to wonder to what extend a liability coach de Villiers is to the Bok cause. I believe that his off the field rantings and his controversial persona must force the Bok team and management to loose focus on their primary task. I mean, how do the guys prepare for their test against the Wallabies when the squad is bogged down in ludicrous controversy.

Yet again, another yellow card inside ten minutes and this time no one can complain about the justice of it.

I believe it is time for injection of new blood. Some of our long serving players looked old and tired with very little to offer the Bok cause. Some of the senior guys were looking so flat and their play was far too stereotyped which was so easily readable by the opposition.

Changes for the home leg…. It would be nice if we could get a new coach or even coaching team, but SARU are going to stick by their Puppet clown. Personally, I feel his head should be the first to roll for both the disrepute and embarrassment he brings to Springbok rugby. Secondly his lack of coaching preparations become more evident game after game. When he took over Jake Whites winning world cup squad, some held up the remarkable results of the Boks as testament to de Villiers coaching credentials. Others felt that he was simply riding Jake Whites wave which will eventually ride itself out. This controversial coach has been guilty of a few crass things such as statements that seem to condone eye gouging and head butting.

But the thing he has been guilty of the most, was believing in his own invincibility as a coach. He has now had his ass handed to him by wily coaches in Deans and Henry and he has now been shown that he is not the divine second coming. Sadly, this has come at the expense of Bok rugby.

An injection of fresh blood in the Bok team is now a must. And I am going to start with Ruan Pieenaar. He is very highly rated here in South Africa. However I believe he is the most over rated player in South African rugby over the last few years. Sure, he is a better bet than Ricki Januarie right now. But please can some one explain to me what he has done in the last few seasons at any level of rugby that makes him so highly rated. For me he is just an average scrumhalf and always has been. Worth having around when your scrummie stocks are low. But that’s it. I argued the same point with my Dad last week and he could not name anything special Ruan has done on a rugby paddock, when he tried to back up his point of view. Again today, we saw yet another average display by an average international half back.

In the absence of Fourie du Preez (whose rugby brain we are sorely missing), the hungrier Francois Hougard should be elevated into our starting lineup once the home leg begins. In the last few minutes Hougard contrasted the more stale Ruan Pienaar with a lively and inventive display that proved a nuisance to the winning Wallabies. His form for the Bulls in the Super 14 has been electric. With opportunity, blooding one of our newer upcoming talents should begin sooner rather than later. Hougard is an excellent prospect. Lets bring him in now.

As for Morne Steyn, he offers no tactical benefit to the Bok team and seems very lost without his Bulls scrumhalf partner, Fourie du Preez. Is Butch James the answer? Definitely not. I would be keen to see how Steyn performed with Hougard as his no 9.

Another injection of fresh blood is the young and talented Juan de Jongh to be paired with Jacques Fourie, the latter who so far has had a very poor Trinations by his high standards. Wynand Olivier sadly should be confined to the Bok trash can. This talented player has never quite made the step up to Bok rugby, in spite of all his promise. Against the Wallabies, he enjoyed one good line break in a move that really looked threatening and then blew away the good work by holding onto the ball when it was screaming to be passed.

Our newer guys like Gio Aplon and Zane Kirchner need to be persevered with. They are talented players who had very little opportunity to show their worth. And of course, we can only dream of Bryan Habana returning to the form that has made him one of rugby’s most dangerous strike players. Having said that, when the Boks were recycling possession, they never allowed the ball to hit the outside wings, more often than not choosing the inside pass. I really felt that they needed to spread the ball further out when giving the ball air.

Coming back to our forwards, I can not express enough how we lament the loss of Brussouw to injury and even how we miss an honest hard bone crunching forward like Juan Smith. But what has happened to our core forwards whom all revolves around. Victor Matfield has not been his usual imposing self and John Smit’s form has taken such a dip, one really has to ask whether we continue persisting with him.

If you were coach of the Boks, would you have the balls to drop him from the starting lineup for the home Tri Nations? And if so, would this have any physiological impact on the team?

On form alone, there are better hookers playing currie cup rugby in South Africa at the moment. As for Pierre Spies and Ryan Kankowski, both are brilliant players and I remain a resolute fan of either. But can the Boks afford to have two flash players for loose forwards. Dewald Potgieter’s late substitution onto the park, reminded us of what the job of a loose forward is. Again, one of the fresh blood crop of players who should start fitting into a vision for a Bok team beyond the Smit, Matfield, Jean de Villiers era.

The All Blacks with their band of senior players have brought in new fresh blood such as Israel Dagg, Cory Jane, Rene Ranger. These newbie’s have filled in for seasoned names like Rockoko and Sivivatu, and have done so with distinction. Look at Australia with their band of babies, running rings around Dads army.

Lastly, our world beating Boks never even came close in three starts against southern hemisphere opposition. Although its not time for panic buttons yet, it certainly is time for alarm bells and to heed warning signs. The preplanning of the Springboks destiny needs to unfold. While I am highly motivated at at the idea of an evolving Bok team with players like Potgieter, Hougard, Aplon, de Jongh, I am seriously concerned about the performance of our senior players like Smit, Matfield and even Jacques Fourie. It is time for serious changes from game plan to playing personal and even coaching techniques.

I am confident that they will be back. South Africa has an abundant of talent. We just have to recognise it and use it wisely.

Congratulations Australia. You are more than worthy winners, as it much as it pains me to say so. Whilst we lick our wounds over the next three weeks, its our turn to sit back and watch the All Blacks and Wallabies knock themselves out.

[Bones]

I reckon concentrate on playing the rugby and that'll probably help a fair bit! Even saw Potgieter throwing a shove or two around, over the sideline, after the whistle, etc. Why? Just be tough in your duties, which isn't shoving a guy on the grounds leg after you've tackled him over the sideline then got up.

[dion]

Our Bokke seniors look very bored out there. Yes, I agree about Mils. Did,nt seem like long ago many Kiwi's were writing him off BUT he is far from being finished. Still in excellent form with plenty to offer the Black cause.

On the upside, rather take these defeats now then next year.......... Hopefully anyway.

[Tom]

I think Fourie has certainly underperformed, but it would be hard to look like a world beater playing outside Oliver. As Razbra (i think) pointed out in another thread, once De Jong came out Fourie looked a different player and started getting over the gain line, so like you say, pairing De Jong and Fourie has to be the way to go for the Boks

[Red Beard]

I think the Boks have plenty of time (about 15 months in fact) to change their approach, make some changes and still be a force come RWC time.

[taniwharugby]

thought Kankowski offered alot on attack, certainly more than Spies has so far, maybe dropping Spies for Kankowski might give him the kick up the arse needed to spur him into action?

Habana needs to stop going for intercepts, he opened a hole for Elsom FFS by coming out too fast.

Try doing more with the ball than going for the intercept all the time putting players alongside you under more pressure.

Is it tie for Peter Grant to get a shot? He is an equally reliable kicker, he seems to have a bit more running in him, well good running.

[Scorz]

There was a period in the game last night when Spies was either missing for 9 or 10 rucks in a row or in the blood bin for 5-6mins. I don't know which one it is, but he was missing. He deserves dropping. Smit is old and fat. Leadership must be pretty hard when you can't make it to the front in time to lead.

[Razbra]

3 games and other than the Scrum/LO there hasn't been a change in attitude, tactics or result.

Smit seems like a personable guy, intelligent and certainly in the past a captain who commands the respect of his players. We are pretty sure the coach has no idea what's going on but I do wonder if Smit is losing control of the squad too.

In consecutive weeks 2 of his more level headed players, JdV and Fourie have been sited for dangerous tackles. There is stupid off the ball stuff everywhere. He himself is not leading by example as Scorz points out he's "old and fat".

I get the feeling there are the players that follow Smit and the rest follow Matfield. The body language between those two looks tense.

[castle corner]

while i feel pretty shitty about the BOks, i think once we get a few players back we will still have chance of beating anybody anywhere
these players must be fit/selected for the world cup for us to have any chance Bismarck,Juan Smith,Brussow,Du preez,frans Steyn.
I'd like to see the youngsters start for the rest of 3n, the likes of de jong and hougaard.

[Canerbry]

Nah, the last couple of years have been an anomaly. We are now back to normal service.

[da_grubster]

castle corner said:

while i feel pretty shitty about the BOks, i think once we get a few players back we will still have chance of beating anybody anywhere
these players must be fit/selected for the world cup for us to have any chance Bismarck,Juan Smith,Brussow,Du preez,frans Steyn.
I'd like to see the youngsters start for the rest of 3n, the likes of de jong and hougaard.

Hmm, the point at which they come back they will be coming back into a team very low on confidence and perhaps a team in transition with the Boks blooding a number of younger players. Bismarck and Smith will improve your pack in both set piece and the loose. I will hold off what impact Broussow will have under the new laws. FDP is obviously a lynch pin for you and is sorely missed at present. where do you play Steyn? Kirchner has been oine of your better players on tour and in all honesty, apart from a big boot I really dont see what Frans Steyn is going to add to the boks

[Tim]

When is Juan Smith returning from his break?

[Bones]

Yeah, as good as F Steyn has been for them, he's never pulled out performances against the ABs.

[da_grubster]

Bones, I suppose Hamilton last year was his biggest impact and that was from those massive penalties.

I think the boks fans are falling into the trap of thinking only thing wrong is a few players that need to return and they will be right but it goes much deeper than that.

And when you compare it to the AB's with some of their injury problems; Hore, Sivi, toeava, Williams(Please!), Kahui - these players will greatly improve our match day 22.

[rustycruiser]

Tim said:

When is Juan Smith returning from his break?

Juan has been playing Currie Cup rugby for Free State for the last three weeks, and was in his usual good form. He was the leading tackler and leading ball carrier for the Cheetahs in their win over the Blue Bulls yesterday. He is available for selection, and presumably will feature for the Boks in the Soweto match against the All Blacks.

[rustycruiser]

da_grubster said:

I think the boks fans are falling into the trap of thinking only thing wrong is a few players that need to return and they will be right but it goes much deeper than that.

Not me. The problems run alot deeper than a few missing players. Aging veterans who are out of sorts or unmotivated, poor tactics based on last year's laws, ineffective coaching (see poor tactics), selecting favored out of form players on reputation, etc etc etc. The shit has hit the proverbial fan in a big way.

[BartMan]

yeah, it's not player, it's what they do on the field - kick and hope is no longe a legit match winning tactic...

[taniwharugby]

Bones said:

Yeah, as good as F Steyn has been for them, he's never pulled out performances against the ABs.

in fact, outside of a couple of monster penalties, he has done some pretty stupid sh!t inside his 22 v NZ.

Juan Smith is one that I think is key, you saw the Cheetahs improve markedly when he returned.

Would Bismarck start ahead of Smit?

Would Smit even be the 2nd best hooker in SA? Surely Bismarck, Liebenberg, possibly even Botha ahead of him?

Was the Bok scrum that bad with him propping?

[BartMan]

TR - probably 'not that bad', but with him a 3, that's the best you're going to get, 'not that bad'. You'll never be killing teams, unless it's Japan or someone...

[Blue]

taniwharugby said:

in fact, outside of a couple of monster penalties, he has done some pretty stupid sh!t inside his 22 v NZ.

Juan Smith is one that I think is key, you saw the Cheetahs improve markedly when he returned.

Would Bismarck start ahead of Smit?

Would Smit even be the 2nd best hooker in SA? Surely Bismarck, Liebenberg, possibly even Botha ahead of him?

Was the Bok scrum that bad with him propping?

Smit at the moment would be the third or fourth best hooker behind Bismarck, Liebenberg and Gary Botha.

A lot has been written in the SA media about the Smit hooker / prop scenario and from what I can see the experiment is over.

The leadership angle for justifying John's selection is starting to wear thin.

[Baron Silas Greenback]

I think the boks would be weaker with F Steyn on the pitch. Last years tactics of waiting for penalties is no longer valid, he didnt bring anything more then Kirchner around the field.

[castle corner]

Could someone tell me about these 'new laws' everybody talks about. There was not a single penalty for not releasing the tackled player.The wallabies were doing it all test long and so were the boks just not as well.
The reason The blacks and wallabies had so much possesion was cause louw was shit and there was no fetcher in the Aus game.the boks for some reason just don't attack the ball on the ground.

If you watch the walllabies it's not just pocock but a lot of different players go for the ball.

[the_doctor]

If Smit was dropped, I'd assume Matfield would be captain? He didn't look too bad in NZ, but I thought he was poor Brisbane. Maybe his age is affecting his ability to play at a high level for weeks in succession. If that is the case, he wouldn't really be a good choice for captain either. Who would the Saffas go for?

I would bring in Juan Smith and make him captain. He's had leadership experience at lower levels, and can be inspirational in his play, to my mind. FDP would be the other option, but I understand he won't be back until next year?

[rustycruiser]

Besides Smit and Matfield, the other guys in the larger squad who have captained their Super 14 teams are Juan Smith, Schalk Burger, Fourie du Preez, and Jean de Villiers. Juan is my number one choice. Leads by example. The problem with FdP being captain is he is very shy and introverted. The Bulls suffered with him in charge, and he wasn't happy with captaincy (according to Smit's book).

[Baron Silas Greenback]

[INDENT]

Quote

[INDENT]Could someone tell me about these 'new laws' everybody talks about. There was not a single penalty for not releasing the tackled player.The wallabies were doing it all test long and so were the boks just not as well.
The reason The blacks and wallabies had so much possesion was cause louw was shit and there was no fetcher in the Aus game.the boks for some reason just don't attack the ball on the ground.

If you watch the walllabies it's not just pocock but a lot of different players go for the ball. [/INDENT]

Not new laws, but new interpretation. And they have definately changed things, yuo now have to release the tackled player and allow him a chance to placethe ball. It has changed the turnover dramatically.

Previously you could effect a 'ball and all' tackle, and keep your hands on the ball whilst you got to your feet (or if you were part 2 of a 2 man tackle you never left your feet). Nowno matter what the tackled player must always be allowed a chance to plave the ball back. What you saw was not the same as last year.
[/INDENT]

[castle corner]

Baron Silas Greenback said:

[INDENT]

Not new laws, but new interpretation. And they have definately changed things, yuo now have to release the tackled player and allow him a chance to placethe ball. It has changed the turnover dramatically.

Previously you could effect a 'ball and all' tackle, and keep your hands on the ball whilst you got to your feet (or if you were part 2 of a 2 man tackle you never left your feet). Nowno matter what the tackled player must always be allowed a chance to plave the ball back. What you saw was not the same as last year.
[/INDENT]

sorry have to disagree with u, nothing was different from last year in these last 3 tests.tackler was all over the tackled player and never allowed him to release, and the refs did sweet fuck all about it

[Crucial]

castle corner said:

sorry have to disagree with u, nothing was different from last year in these last 3 tests.tackler was all over the tackled player and never allowed him to release, and the refs did sweet fuck all about it

Have you been watching replays instead of the real games mate? This year is hugely different. The only way you can attack the ball as a defender is by obviously letting he player release the ball then having a crack or by being the second man there and hoping the first guy plays by the rules. That half second is all that is needed for the attacking side to get the ball back to safety.

What hasn't changed from the Wallabies is that the refs are allowing defending players to protect the breakdown while not really supporting their own weight. I have noticed that the ABs tend to have shoulders level with their hips or hit low and drive up while the Wobblies are still doing that 'spread your legs wide and lean on to the tackled player stance' which IMO should be stopped as it is effectively sealing of the ball. A while back the refs went heavy on players not supporting their own weight but it seems to have gone by the wayside.

[castle corner]

Crucial said:

Have you been watching replays instead of the real games mate? This year is hugely different. The only way you can attack the ball as a defender is by obviously letting he player release the ball then having a crack or by being the second man there and hoping the first guy plays by the rules. That half second is all that is needed for the attacking side to get the ball back to safety.

What hasn't changed from the Wallabies is that the refs are allowing defending players to protect the breakdown while not really supporting their own weight. I have noticed that the ABs tend to have shoulders level with their hips or hit low and drive up while the Wobblies are still doing that 'spread your legs wide and lean on to the tackled player stance' which IMO should be stopped as it is effectively sealing of the ball. A while back the refs went heavy on players not supporting their own weight but it seems to have gone by the wayside.

Remember I'm just talking about the last 3 tests, I also noticed the 'swivel' move was back in a big way in this last test.

Unless i go and watch the game again and write down the time and player who made the offence there is not much more i can say.
judging by the responses no one agrees with me and thats fine, I still stand by what I said, Wob gameplan + better execution of said gameplan + lack of Bok fechers+ crap Bok gameplan was reason why they were able to play the keep possesion game, run from everywhere game and not the so called change in law interpretations which were never applied in the test.

[D-Up]

I tend to agree with you cc. In the game against Oz I cant recall of any penalties against the defending side for not releasing the player and the Aussies were guilty of it a few times.

[Toddy]

Ozzie looked the better team for most of the games but the refs lack of calls against Oz was unbelievable. At one stage the Boks had about 5 phases in the oz 22 and the ozzies infringed in every one of them but the ref didn't blow his whistle once. Worst game by a ref this year I reckon.