150 replies to this topic

[Red Beard]

Whats his next move going to be? Pretty hard to imagine him being the next All Black coach now. Does he really want to return home and coach a Super franchise again? And would it really be a good thing for him (or the franchise) if he were to return to the Crusaders? In hindsight taking on this Wallaby job may not have been his best career move. It may well severely limit his future options, bar going to Europe which probably wasnt the direction he thought he would be heading.

[jegga]

I think it's still way too early to write him off for the rwc, he needs to choose a new captain for a start.Elsom behaved like a petulent child when he should have been trying to lead his team by example, maybe Genia? I'd be interested to know if he would coach any other kiwi franchise but the crusaders, failing that there's worse coaches than him making a good living coaching in the nh.

How many of last nights wallaby team would you pick ahead of their ab opposite?I don't think he is a crap coach, he just doesn't have the cattle at the moment.My 2c worth anyway.

[Razbra]

It'll be what he does next that will define his career for sure. Few things though:

He's got the wrong guy at captain.

He should never have been allowed to let George Smith go. He was having an average spell but I think there was plenty left in the tank. Even if he was a bench option the experience was too much to lose. Throw in the loss of Waugh and Mortlock, though deservedly dropped and some serious mentoring potential.

Doesn't seem to be a distinct game plan. What style are/have they been playing? It's helter skelter rugby.

The ill discipline shown by his players isn't really the same as what is plaguing the Boks but it's brainless, pointless stuff. It continued after the half time speech, not just the red card incident either. It's petulance.

I think overall Deans doesn't really have control of his players.

[matata_massive]

he shouldnt have dropped his senior players cause they are really lacking in leadership...although seeing pocock play maybe smith wasnt as big a loss as he was earlier...

[darreninusa]

matata_massive said:

he shouldnt have dropped his senior players cause they are really lacking in leadership...although seeing pocock play maybe smith wasnt as big a loss as he was earlier...

Maybe having Smith at 8 might have been an option?

I think he is clearly being out coached by Henry, I don't think the Aus have made any improvements at all under Deans.

Those tatics were never going to work against us, shouldn't Deans have realized this and adapted his tatics once he saw that were not working... But lets see how they do next week.

[dingo]

I think the convicts will take a few positives out of the game and the mental damage won't be great.

For mine, they suckered the ABs into abandoning their own gameplan and playing the convict game. I think the ABs were looking to play a more structured game early, hence the kicking but got sucked into the convict headless chook game. The difference between the two teams, is that the ABs are so much better at the basics so they can get away with it.

The convicts will also look at the last 30 minutes where they played with more conviction and passion and try to build on that. They'll ignore the first 40 where they were getting a towelling. They'll also blame the Red Card, lack of Cooper, Jobert's officiating etc.

I think the convicts will need to put up a much better show next week or the coach position is going to start to become pretty uncomfortable.

I actually think the best position Deans could get (other than the ABs) that would show what he was really made of would be the English gig. Keep Johnson as a Manager who has the mana with the RFU to get what he wants but leave Deans to do the real coaching. With the raw potential available in England, Deans could really do something special. He'd need a few years to coach their backs into having some real vision rather than robots, as well as their forwards to lift their intensity but what a challenge for a coach!

[Naly D]

Can anyone tell me, has Brown been cited for his no-arm tackle on Richie as he passed to Flynn to score the try last night, or whoever [can't remember who] it was that pulled off that cynical high hit late in the game?

[scruffy-lookin]

Good point about Deans and England Dingo. My big question regarding Deans and the Wallabies is that what Deans brings - structured organized back play - was already the Wallabies strength while he has been able to do little to improve the Wallabies forward weaknesses.

Deans would offer England something they need while presumably there are people in the England setup who can take care of the forwards.

[DMX]

darreninusa said:

I think he is clearly being out coached by Henry, I don't think the Aus have made any improvements at all under Deans.

Copied ABs gameplan against Boks then wrongly believed that the exact gameplan could beat the ABs. Brought almost nothing new to the table. I don't blame him for dropping Smith and Waugh for Pocock as if he hadn't we would be here asking why he does not play Pocock. That said I am wondering if he spends to much time going for the turnovers at the breakdown while McCaw is off all over the park tackling and running.

[Chris B.]

Robbie's first move should be to weed out a few of his mini backs and get a few people with some bulk in there.

Ashley Cooper is the only one with any size about him - most of the rest are less than 90kg. The ABs just find it too easy to get over the advantage line when we're attacking and too easily knock these guys backwards when they attack.

[canefan]

There is a leadership vacumn at the moment, as many of the Wallabies' more prominent players of the last few years have either lost form and got old, and in some cases been let go by Robbie also. The current team are lacking in the tactical nous that previous teams may have had. They are inferior man for man but don't have the smarts and toughness to try to even the contest up in other ways

[Mattasaurus]

Dean record not to flash currently.. but I think he has built some futture depth for the wobblies....

My question would be once Henry is gone .... who would we want to coach the blacks.....

I wouldn't want Hansen.....but Deans has done himself no favours thus far with Aussie.... and please no suggest the whinging Welsh Kiwi

[mimic]

Deans/Lam vs Hansen/Smith(?)

Would be some great discussions..

[DMX]

Chris B. said:

Robbie's first move should be to weed out a few of his mini backs and get a few people with some bulk in there.

Ashley Cooper is the only one with any size about him - most of the rest are less than 90kg. The ABs just find it too easy to get over the advantage line when we're attacking and too easily knock these guys backwards when they attack.

Thats a good point, I was thinking about this too. I think a lot of it starts with the mismatch Nonu has. I think he has to move Ashley Cooper to 12 assuming Rok did not concuss him for the next game.however once Quade Cooper is back then he has one playmaker too many but maybe against Boks it doesn't matter and he can shift Ashley Cooper out one again and take it from there.

[Chris B.]

Next coach of the ABs might be something of a poisoned chalice, initially.

You'd have to think that we will lose a goodly chunk of our best players after RWC2011. McCaw, Carter, Thorn, Woodcock, Mealamu, Weepu, Nonu, Smith, Rok, Muliaina from last night's team. There will be some rebuilding to do and there will probably be a few unhappy days at the beginning.

[dingo]

Chris B. said:

Next coach of the ABs might be something of a poisoned chalice, initially.

You'd have to think that we will lose a goodly chunk of our best players after RWC2011. McCaw, Carter, Thorn, Woodcock, Mealamu, Weepu, Nonu, Smith, Rok, Muliaina from last night's team. There will be some rebuilding to do and there will probably be a few unhappy days at the beginning.

You'd still back a team made up of some of the following to win against most teams, except SA/France/Eng/Oz. You think that at home, the ABs would be 55/45 favourates against them too after a few matches to build combinations:

Franks/Crockett
Hore ©/Elliot
Franks/Tialata/Afoa
Donnelly,
Borric/Whitelock,
Kaino/Vito,
Messam/Latimar
Read (vc),
Cowan/Matthewson
Slade
Siv/Ranger/Savea (Sp Wellington under 21 guy)
SBW
Kahui
Jane
Dagg

Actually thinking about, I reckon Deans should stay with Oz after 2011, I think his players will come of age and the ABs will be relatively much weaker. He'd probably even up the win/loss record a bit.

[mimic]

still got players coming up as well who look the goods

you didnt even mention toeava, and i doubt sbw will stay on after 2011

Edited by mimic, 01 August 2010 - 01:41 PM.

[taniwharugby]

I know we never know what will happen, but McCaw has indicated he has no desire to leave NZ in the past....Mealamu could have up sticks a year or 2 back when it seemed he was usurped by Hore.

Who knows what is around the corner, I'd rather just enjoy things as they are right now, before the rugby world gets in a fervor waiting with baited breath for our inevitable 'choke' next year

[Red Beard]

taniwharugby said:

I know we never know what will happen, but McCaw has indicated he has no desire to leave NZ in the past....Mealamu could have up sticks a year or 2 back when it seemed he was usurped by Hore.

Who knows what is around the corner, I'd rather just enjoy things as they are right now, before the rugby world gets in a fervor waiting with baited breath for our inevitable 'choke' next year

It would be awesome to see Mealamu get 100 tests but if he finishes after 2011 he will miss the boat. Think he is on 77 at the mo.

[Scorz]

Reckon Wobbie would be great with that rich Frog club. Be just like having the silver spoon back for him.

[The NightMayor]

Scorz said:

Reckon Wobbie would be great with that rich Frog club. Be just like having the silver spoon back for him.

(Waits for Canerbry's inevitable defence and accusations)

[Nepia]

To bring the thread back on topic (not that Kev's great form doesn't warrant a thread on its own), I must say that I'm getting sick of hearing that Deans (and this is said in a sarcastic voice ) doesn't have the same standard of cattle.

At the start of 2008 we were freaking out in NZ because we'd lost so many class players after the WC. Henry and his two off siders set about reconstructing the ABs team and turned players we were unsure about into top quality internationals. Some of the players that Henry has identified are crap at S14 level but are class when under the Cartel (Weepu, Kahui). They have molded the cattle to suit.

Deans had the same chance, but he has done the opposite, Giteau has gotten worse and worse as the time has gone on, other players Deans has put his faith in aren't up to it and he's continued on with them, he let (or forced) Smith go. Quite simply the time for excuses are over - aren't they?

Edit: Wow that took me 12mins to write - although I have been watching the Warrior out of one eye.

[reprobate]

DMX said:

Copied ABs gameplan against Boks then wrongly believed that the exact gameplan could beat the ABs. Brought almost nothing new to the table. I don't blame him for dropping Smith and Waugh for Pocock as if he hadn't we would be here asking why he does not play Pocock. That said I am wondering if he spends to much time going for the turnovers at the breakdown while McCaw is off all over the park tackling and running.

Just out of interest, do you also believe that Henry was clearly out-coached by PDV last season when the ABs were running it from everywhere and the boks were playing structured set-piece rugby?

[Chris B.]

Don't think your logic really stands up to scrutiny though, Nepia.

Otherwise you'd have to agree that Henry is a substantially worse coach when he has Donald at 1st five rather than Carter. Coach or cattle?

Since the 2007 RWC the ABs have lost seven games, but we've only lost once when both McCaw and Carter were playing.

In fact we've ever lost five games when both Carter and McCaw were playing.

You will counter by saying that McCaw and Carter also helped make Robbie a great S14 coach and I will agree with you.

But, I don't see any world beaters that Robbie isn't picking - aside from a few who are injured. I think he's fucked up by picking too many midgets in the backs, but even if he picked a handful of bigger guys, I don't think it would have made a significant difference to last night's result. I don't think Smith would have been an upgrade on Pocock last night.

[Nepia]

reprobate said:

Just out of interest, do you also believe that Henry was clearly out-coached by PDV last season when the ABs were running it from everywhere and the boks were playing structured set-piece rugby?

I'd say yes, Henry and co were too slow to change their tactics, too slow to bring in appropriate players like Dagg. They only really clicked at the end of the Tri Nations. In saying that there were only a couple of inches in two of the Bok games. But yeah PDV out coached us last year.

[Scorz]

Nepia said:

I'd say yes, Henry and co were too slow to change their tactics, too slow to bring in appropriate players like Dagg. They only really clicked at the end of the Tri Nations. In saying that there were only a couple of inches in two of the Bok games. But yeah PDV out coached us last year.

Sun shines on a dog's arse once in a while eh.

I think the Bulls coach, Meyer, out coached the Cartel last year in terms of the rule interpretations, and Muir (the Puppet master) took the best of that and inserted some of the better players outside the Bulls to the same plan to some extent. Similarly the Cartel have mastered this years rule interpretations ahead of anyone else.

[DMX]

reprobate said:

Just out of interest, do you also believe that Henry was clearly out-coached by PDV last season when the ABs were running it from everywhere and the boks were playing structured set-piece rugby?

I think the AB coaches did a poor job in playing to the old rules and choosing the team. Hardly anything new or different about the Boks game plan same one as this year, same one as '08 no variety to it, so can't say he was outcoached I think we did not adjust to Boks or rules.

[taniwharugby]

as a counter, I'd argue the players made alot of stupid decisons and unforced errors last year, just alot of stupid play last season

[Nepia]

Chris B. said:

Don't think your logic really stands up to scrutiny though, Nepia.

Otherwise you'd have to agree that Henry is a substantially worse coach when he has Donald at 1st five rather than Carter. Coach or cattle?

Since the 2007 RWC the ABs have lost seven games, but we've only lost once when both McCaw and Carter were playing.

In fact we've ever lost five games when both Carter and McCaw were playing.

You will counter by saying that McCaw and Carter also helped make Robbie a great S14 coach and I will agree with you.

But, I don't see any world beaters that Robbie isn't picking - aside from a few who are injured. I think he's fucked up by picking too many midgets in the backs, but even if he picked a handful of bigger guys, I don't think it would have made a significant difference to last night's result. I don't think Smith would have been an upgrade on Pocock last night.

You're missing my point, Henry has world beaters in the team, but in the case of many of them they weren't two years ago - this AB environment has promoted many players. You're also concentrating on one or two players and not the team. It's not all in selection either, it's gameplan, team culture and spirit - which this team seems to be lacking.

Otherwise we may as well not even bother evaluating Deans' performance as it appears results don't count? Did the Wallabies lose to Scotland because they have better cattle as well? Rather than assess his performance apparently we can excuse everything because he doesn't have the same 'cattle'. I think we're past that. We don't stop assessing guys like Colin Cooper because they don't have McCaw and Carter. Put Carter in the Canes and I'm 100% certain they would have won a S14, but I stil believe they should have won one anyway.

[reprobate]

Nepia said:

To bring the thread back on topic (not that Kev's great form doesn't warrant a thread on its own), I must say that I'm getting sick of hearing that Deans (and this is said in a sarcastic voice ) doesn't have the same standard of cattle.

The problem is that it is largely true Nepia, they don't have the players:
How many aussies would you select in a tri-nations XV based on super 14 form? (where those players are under different coaches)
How do you think a wallabies 2nd XV team would go against all blacks 2nd XV, and could you even name a wallabies 2nd XV?

Now ask the same questions for the saffas, and you can see pretty clearly where the dud coach is.