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[Red Beard]

Thats because we dont have any!

Quote

Worries remain over Carter, McCaw alternatives



By DUNCAN JOHNSTONE - Stuff


Last updated 21:50 07/08/2010


In a season where so much – and such rapid - progress has been made two concerns remain for the All Blacks going forward.

And now that some major silverware has been banked in the form of the Bledisloe Cup after the 20-10 win over the Wallabies in Christchurch it will be a real test of the coaching staff's mettle to see how they go about solving what has been an ongoing dilemma.
I'm talking about Richie McCaw and Dan Carter, each a talisman of the forwards and backs respectively and such influential figures on the All Blacks as a whole.
They were outstanding in Christchurch again, just as they have been throughout this rollicking test season.
McCaw never drops his high standards and Carter has clearly regained his after a relatively ordinary Super 14.
We know we can win with them - it's been proven time and again. But can we live without this dynamic duo? History has shown that's a struggle as we saw so painfully last year.
The All Blacks have undoubtedly moved a long way forward from the Tri-Nations struggles of '09.
But they have done little in the way of finding alternatives at numbers seven and 10.
McCaw has worked as the Lone Ranger throughout the seven tests to date. He has shown he has no equal in world rugby at the moment and he's clearly streets ahead of any other openside in New Zealand.
But work must be done to address that at test level.
It's the same at first five. With the investment in Stephen Donald now redundant, there has been a natural reluctance to throw too much, too quickly at Carter's new understudy, Aaron Cruden.
The 21-year-old has made five appearances off the bench this season but that has amounted to just 60 minutes of action and with the Christchurch match so tight he wasn't risked.
As good as the All Blacks game looks right now and as exciting their World Cup prospects appear with their new-age approach, it's a sobering prospect to think of the All Blacks heading into the game's biggest tournament without either McCaw or Carter or, heaven forbid, both of them. They are that crucial.
While they are durable they will always be vulnerable in a game as fast and physical as the one that is now in vogue.
McCaw and Carter are supermen but they aren't indestructible.
Neither like being cotton-wooled and we saw the folly of that theory in the buildup to the last World Cup.
The coaches need to find a compromise that keeps both of them in tune but also allows development of alternatives.
Time is ticking away on getting other players up to speed. There are just 11 tests now before the All Blacks kick off the World Cup at Eden Park against Tonga.

It will be fascinating to see the attitude Graham Henry, Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen take on this tricky equation now.
The championship is as good as won but a point at least is required againdt the Springboks in Soweto in two weeks time. After their struggles in Africa last year and McCaw and Carter will be central to that.
The third Bledisloe Cup encounter in Sydney in September and fourth clash of the season with the Wallabies in Hong Kong appeal as matches where there could be some experimentation as does the Grand Slam tour at the end of the year.
It's been pleasing to see the solidity and consistency of selection and the rewards have been quite some remarkable rugby as was witnessed again in Christchurch.
The All Blacks are overflowing with talent in many areas, particularly the outside backs, their tight forwards and at blindside flanker.
But they are still shy of options in two specialist positions that count most.

[Red Beard]

Im being a little harsh, Latimer, Braid and maybe Thompson are very good opensides. The recent rule changes may have some effect on their games. Delany, Cruden and Donald have all been blooded now with some success. Personally I sometimes wonder if David Holwell is the guy who should step in for DC but thats another thread in itself.

The funny thing is in years gone by openside flanker was the position we probably had the most depth in. At one stage the NPC saw Jones, Henderson, Schuler, Monkley and Kronfeld all running around smashing each other! Even at first five we had the situation of Botica unable to get a run behind Fox or Merts and Spencer battling it out. Not so long ago we had Evans and DC.

I dont think you can underestimate the contributions the two best players in any team make to the overall performance. Ive seen it this year in local JAB footy. My sons team are hopeless, totally out of their depth (actually playing in the wrong grade but thats another matter). In the Valley when the opposition scores 45 points (which has happened in nearly every game this season) the match is stopped. The coaches from the respective teams then swap a few players over and a new match is played for the remaining time.

In every instance this season when we have been given the the two best players from the other team we have outscored the opposition in the second half. Its unbeliveable. Pretty funny to seeing the coaches from the opposition suddenly yelling at their team after strutting around with their chests out in the first half. For all the good work supposedly being done by some coaches hell bent on winning the U9 championship, if their two stars were removed the perforamnce of their high flying team suddenly nosedives.

Im not for a second trying to suggest this isnt a very good AB team. It clearly is. But without McCaw and/or Carter would you be as confident of us winning a knockout game in the RWC?

[Razbra]

I have moved on. I have had people spell it out well enough for me here that take the two best players out of any team and they'll struggle. The players who have to step in will always be shit by comparison in most peoples eyes. But then they prove themselves and sometimes they actually surpass those before them. It amazes me sometimes though that somehow it becomes the coaches fault for having irreplaceable players rather than having a lack of alternatives putting their hands up. Donald is a perfect example. He was outstanding in last years S14. He deserved his selection and no one(mostly) complained. He simply did not deliver. Thats on him not the coaches as they persevered with him to the point of ridiculousness.

Sport isn't about sure things. If the unthinkable happens and these 2 go down it'll suck buts its sport.

[taniwharugby]

the way you need to look at it, is how thier replacements fare vs the opposition, rather than comparing thier replacement vs McCaw/DC.

I think Braid's stock has risen loads with the rule changes, I think if we are playing the way we are, Donald would look alot better too (if he was given the chance again)

[Red Beard]

Razbra said:

I have moved on. I have had people spell it out well enough for me here that take the two best players out of any team and they'll struggle. The players who have to step in will always be shit by comparison in most peoples eyes. But then they prove themselves and sometimes they actually surpass those before them. It amazes me sometimes though that somehow it becomes the coaches fault for having irreplaceable players rather than having a lack of alternatives putting their hands up. Donald is a perfect example. He was outstanding in last years S14. He deserved his selection and no one(mostly) complained. He simply did not deliver. Thats on him not the coaches as they persevered with him to the point of ridiculousness.

Sport isn't about sure things. If the unthinkable happens and these 2 go down it'll suck buts its sport.

Im not suggesting we are guaranteed to win the World Cup. Im saying we seem to lack depth in what has traditionally been our strongest position (openside). I wonder why this is.

Edited by Red Beard, 08 August 2010 - 10:53 AM.

[Duluth]

Red Beard said:

The funny thing is in years gone by openside flanker was the position we probably had the most depth in. At one stage the NPC saw Jones, Henderson, Schuler, Monkley and Kronfeld all running around smashing each other! Even at first five we had the situation of Botica unable to get a run behind Fox or Merts and Spencer battling it out. Not so long ago we had Evans and DC.

There's also been times when our opensides were people like Taine Randell and Scott Robertson. Or when Stephen Bachop, Marc Ellis and Walter Little were the flyhalfs..

I'm not concerned by openside personally. It's not a matter of comparing the backup to McCaw but comparing the backup to every other openside in the world. Dan Braid was arguably the best openside in Super rugby and he fits into the new interpretations perfectly. Incidentally I think Read would do a fine job the way the game is being played currently.

At flyhalf there is less depth and we need Cruden (or whoever else) to get game time as fast as possible.

But again its not the comparison to our number one that matters but the comparison to what other teams have. It's not as though world rugby is over flowing with quality flyhalfs. Its Dan Carter, daylight and then a bunch of goodish players.
I think whoever we select would compare fairly well with what other teams have to offer. Besides if our pack keeps performing as it is the job of our flyhalf is easier than the oppositions.

[Red Beard]

Duluth said:

There's also been times when our opensides were people like Taine Randell and Scott Robertson. Or when Stephen Bachop, Marc Ellis and Walter Little were the flyhalfs..

I'm not concerned by openside personally. It's not a matter of comparing the backup to McCaw but comparing the backup to every other openside in the world. Dan Braid was arguably the best openside in Super rugby and he fits into the new interpretations perfectly. Incidentally I think Read would do a fine job the way the game is being played currently.

At flyhalf there is less depth and we need Cruden (or whoever else) to get game time as fast as possible.

But again its not the comparison to our number one that matters but the comparison to what other teams have. It's not as though world rugby is over flowing with quality flyhalfs. Its Dan Carter, daylight and then a bunch of goodish players.
I think whoever we select would compare fairly well with what other teams have to offer. Besides if our pack keeps performing as it is the job of our flyhalf is easier than the oppositions.

I agree. I'm looking forward to seeing if Braid can force his way into the EOYT. As a player while Richie is phenomenal we have some good loosies. However Richie has also come on in leaps and bounds as a leader, particularly the way he interacts with referees. Hes starting to get a touch of the old Fitzy/Martin Johnson about him. As for first five though Dan is going to be a hard act to follow.

[Razbra]

Red Beard said:

Im not suggesting we are guaranteed to win the World Cup. Im saying we seem to lack depth in what has traditionally been our strongest position (openside). I wonder why this is.

Im sure the constant law changes have played a large part in that. Young guys coming through are likely struggling to adapt to the ridiculous biannual "tweaking" we go through and development is in this holding pattern.

McCaw himself took more than a few games to adjust in this years S14...though he was played out of position.

[Red Beard]

Razbra said:

Im sure the constant law changes have played a large part in that. Young guys coming through are likely struggling to adapt to the ridiculous biannual "tweaking" we go through and development is in this holding pattern.

McCaw himself took more than a few games to adjust in this years S14...though he was played out of position.

I agree the constant law changes must have had an affect on the opensides ability to adapt. They probably suit a Masoe type more than a Latimer or Thomson at present.

[Scorz]

It's strange to me how the Cartel bear the brunt of the "blame" for there being no stand out back-up in the papers - surely it's the "job" of the lower (S14, ITMNPC) echelons to nurture raw talent first?

[DMX]

Red Beard said:

I agree the constant law changes must have had an affect on the opensides ability to adapt. They probably suit a Masoe type more than a Latimer or Thomson at present.

I would say the way the ABs and McCaw are playing the new rules it makes complete sense for Read, Messam or Thomson to replace him. I don't see Braid, Latimer or Waldron as being in the ballpark at the moment.

[Duluth]

Given the effort Henry made to get Braid back in the country he definitely is "in the ball park". The way he played the game for the Reds under the new interpretations fits well with what the ABs are doing too

[taniwharugby]

yeah I thiink Braid (Blackie if he returned) are definately the kind of guys that sut this kind of game.

[DMX]

Duluth said:

Given the effort Henry made to get Braid back in the country he definitely is "in the ball park". The way he played the game for the Reds under the new interpretations fits well with what the ABs are doing too

Not saying he isn't playing well but just saying I think he is number 5 on the 7 depth charts at best. Henry has said Read backing up McCaw and I think Messam and Thompson next. The ABs aren't playing the small fetcher attacking the breakdown style. More big bloke getting around the park knocking the man backward combined with strong ball carrying.
Henry wanted Luke back in the country too, a lot of good thats done him.

[Deepblue]

Braid was awesome again this weekend, not McCaw like (who is at the moment?) but definitely in the form of his career. He would make a more than adequate replacement.

[Red Beard]

DMX said:

Not saying he isn't playing well but just saying I think he is number 5 on the 7 depth charts at best. Henry has said Read backing up McCaw and I think Messam and Thompson next. The ABs aren't playing the small fetcher attacking the breakdown style. More big bloke getting around the park knocking the man backward combined with strong ball carrying.
Henry wanted Luke back in the country too, a lot of good thats done him.

Yeah if anything counts against Briad it will be that he isn't a carrier like Messam and the rest of the loosies.

[hau22]

yeah i tautoko Scorz... the S15 and ITM coaches need to punt on some talent instead of sticking with the same players year in year out. the AB coaches try to pick someone out of left field, but they cant pick out of club rugby. I see brilliant players every week in club, but get overlooked for people with reputations, or who have been to an academy or thru the grades.

[Red Beard]

Scorz said:

It's strange to me how the Cartel bear the brunt of the "blame" for there being no stand out back-up in the papers - surely it's the "job" of the lower (S14, ITMNPC) echelons to nurture raw talent first?

Thats true but at the end of the day the buck falls with the AB coaches to ensure they have the best players possible striving for selection.

[hau22]

Red Beard said:

Thats true but at the end of the day the buck falls with the AB coaches to ensure they have the best players possible striving for selection.

how do they do that? tell every NPC coach who to pick? attend club games in every province?

I do think though that they (or the R.U) should be picking the S15 squads. because the current coaches look after their fav players not the best ones in the country.

[Duluth]

DMX said:

Not saying he isn't playing well but just saying I think he is number 5 on the 7 depth charts at best.

Well thats your ranking.. and your ranking isn't particularly important.

Henry was heavily involved in getting Braid back. He wouldn't do that for a player that he ranked 5th at best

[Nepia]

The openside talent is coming through. Luke Braid is highly rated, as was Latimer, McCaw is just on another level altogether though. There are a bunch of 'good' opensides around: Waldrom, Boys and Soakai down south. George Whitelock was the second coming last year apparently ....
The guys below McCaw are good, but not great, to tell you the truth I'd be happy with Dan Braid, Lowe, or Latimer if McCaw goes down. But I prefer McCaw. Just like I was happy with Ginge Henderson, Mike Brewer, back in the day, but they did not come close to Jones. Although Brewer had a shot at greatness if he'd stayed injury free.

We have bigger problems at 10 though, maybe because our good ones are just too inexperienced at international level, but as I said on other threads I have confidence in Cruden stepping up to the plate with regular gametime.

[kiwiinmelb]

Gee I better touch some wood while I write this ,

But we have been pretty lucky Dan and Richie are not the injury prone types .

[Zader]

The game has changed especially at 10 - I think it's not as important any more. 9 is now as if not more important as the 9 is the real decision maker on almost every play.

McCaw is a legend and nobody in world rugby could replace him. But again the rule changes have altered the role and he plays a very different game this year. If it's specifically about winning turnovers then really it's the job of whoever gets there - some players like Conrad Smith & Kieran Read do a great job in that area and I think it is something the ABs are trying to do more this year.

I'm far less worried about replacing them than I was last year especially when so many others are really standing up. I suppose we need to see the ABs under real pressure and see what happens but I don't think this team would crack without Carter and McCaw as they would have done the last few years.

[Scorz]

Red Beard said:

Thats true but at the end of the day the buck falls with the AB coaches to ensure they have the best players possible striving for selection.

I reckon it's up to the lower grade coaches and management to look after the young talented players, give them the opportunity to shine so that the ITM/S14 teams notice the guys, and prep them to the next level - Wider Training Squads, academy sides etc... And then once they get to that sort of level perhaps it's appropriate to have some encouragement from AB level if the Cartel like what they or their scouts see.
Which kinda leads into my previous point, you can't blame Deans for his Dick Browns and other shitty options - and you can't blame Henry and Co for the lack of a back up to the Worlds best 7 and 10. It shouldn't be their project until a player makes the ITM level look beneath him.

[Chris B.]

I find it pretty hard to believe that there's players of the Carter/McCaw calibre running round in club rugby, who just haven't been identified. There might be people who could be as good if they put in the work, but if you changed McCaw's name to John Smith and put him into a third grade club team, he'd play his way into the ABs within two years and it would only be excessive caution at higher levels that would slow his passage.

[Red Beard]

Scorz said:

I reckon it's up to the lower grade coaches and management to look after the young talented players, give them the opportunity to shine so that the ITM/S14 teams notice the guys, and prep them to the next level - Wider Training Squads, academy sides etc... And then once they get to that sort of level perhaps it's appropriate to have some encouragement from AB level if the Cartel like what they or their scouts see.
Which kinda leads into my previous point, you can't blame Deans for his Dick Browns and other shitty options - and you can't blame Henry and Co for the lack of a back up to the Worlds best 7 and 10. It shouldn't be their project until a player makes the ITM level look beneath him.

I would imagine the lack of depth is of huge concern to Deans, its his neck on the block if the talent cant find its way to test or S14 level. I bet in the off season he is doing everything he can to improve systems that will develop better players below Wallaby level. Henry and co do similar things. Thats why they appointed Cron and Mick Bynre to spend so much time with S14 franchises and ITM Cup sides. I reckon on the EOYT they will give Cruden and some lucky flanker as much gametime as they can possibly afford to.

[Red Beard]

Zader said:

The game has changed especially at 10 - I think it's not as important any more. 9 is now as if not more important as the 9 is the real decision maker on almost every play.

McCaw is a legend and nobody in world rugby could replace him. But again the rule changes have altered the role and he plays a very different game this year. If it's specifically about winning turnovers then really it's the job of whoever gets there - some players like Conrad Smith & Kieran Read do a great job in that area and I think it is something the ABs are trying to do more this year.

I'm far less worried about replacing them than I was last year especially when so many others are really standing up. I suppose we need to see the ABs under real pressure and see what happens but I don't think this team would crack without Carter and McCaw as they would have done the last few years.

If ten isnt such an important position anymore why havent they given Cruden more gametime this season? Its like they old rotation policy. Henry would happily rotate any player for any big test apart from Carter, McCaw and Hayman that is.

[Zader]

Red Beard said:

If ten isnt such an important position anymore why havent they given Cruden more gametime this season? Its like they old rotation policy. Henry would happily rotate any player for any big test apart from Carter, McCaw and Hayman that is.

Because they want to get the job done and take no risks. They have been pretty consistent in starting their best players this year. The bench though is green. The focus is on getting the team functioning to a certain level first and giving guys experience is secondary. Carter and McCaw are world class and there can only be a step down to the backup.

Cruden's potential is huge with the way the game appears to be going but he is young and needs to be handled carefully. And I think Donald and Delaney would also be much more comfortable and effective with the game today than last year.

Braid / Latimer or maybe Lowe could provide a good option at 7 but McCaw this season has also been an effective call carrier as well as his usual link role in open play. And then there is his leadership. What other 7 in world rugby could replace what McCaw does for the ABs??

I do agree though that they need to really blood a backup 7.

[davidav]

Isn't it interesting how after about two years of me posting that the ABs have a real problem with no real quality alternatives to Carter and McCaw, the media finally seem to have caught on. Real fucking scholars, aren't they.

[DMX]

Duluth said:

Well thats your ranking.. and your ranking isn't particularly important.

Henry was heavily involved in getting Braid back. He wouldn't do that for a player that he ranked 5th at best

Every player I mentioned is an All Black this year and last and were selected while Braid was still available. I don't see why you would read that much into Henry wanting Braid to come back to New Zealand and the Blues. I think you can argue Braid is behind Latimer.