21 replies to this topic

[Scorz]

I think we could use some argument about whether the hit should stay in rugby scrummaging. What's the Pro's and Con's?
As I understand it, a scrum without a hit would involve having the arrival of the ball into the scrum signalling the beginning of the contest, with the team putting in the ball at an advantage by being able to time their shove. Any movement off the mark by either team would have to be policed, but would this mean "early shove" free kicks would become an issue? Or (to me more likely) if the opposition scrum fails to "take the weight" of the scrum whereby the attacking team lurches forward over the mark?
Would this solution be easier for ref's to decipher?

[Bay boy Tim]

Iv'e heard in the past props like to hit rather than not hit. ???
They need to do something there though.

[NTA]

Ewen McKenzie wrote a recent article about scrummaging which I found interesting - wasn't making judgement as such, but just putting his thoughts out there on what he'd seen and experienced.

http://www.smh.com.a...0323-1c6lo.html

There are some very quotable quotes there, but he is probably not far off the mark with this:

Quote

The scrum was effectively built or constructed and the only job the referee had was to wait for it to be steady and instruct the ball to be fed. I don’t reckon we are far off a revolution on this topic and we could do worse than just turn the clock back a bit and see if a better solution might be in the past.

I am betting the players and referees would like it all to be a bit simpler and self- regulated. I always say “less is more”.

Personally I think a bit too much emphasis is being given to the ref's control, but that is largely because of the injury factor. But what is the point of saying "pause" when you have a pause between every bloody word?

The other issue is ref's pinging a prop for putting his hand on the ground. This is just stupid if the prop is doing it to stabilise the scrum. Binds on the opponent aren't 100% necessary to stabilise a scrum to be honest.

Inexperienced props can result in collapses on the hit but I reckon most of the collapses come from mis-alignment as Link says - a bad hit can put you in a bad position and once the power comes onof course. Most of the collapses I've been in come well after the hit and usually as the ball is being contested and one side gains dominance (my rotator cuff and I are still not on speaking terms from Round 2).

The hit itself is a fantastic spectacle but is not, in my opinion, necessary to prove who has the best scrum. I say go back to the future and let the props manage it.

Edited by NTA, 24 April 2011 - 02:31 PM.

[Kirwan]

Yep let the props handle it (at the elite level at least), and penalise for standing up or time wasting getting to the scrum. Focus on the old days of people jogging to the scrum, getting set fast, and getting on with it.

[Red Beard]

I used to find being able to put my hand on the ground as a loosehead in the old days gave me a massive advantage over the tighthead. It allowed me to get readjust myself and then drive up underneath them. I didnt put my hand on the ground to keep the scrum up I did it to get more leverage so I could destroy the TH.

There is a huge emphasis on the hit in NZ rugby. The NH packs like to scrum longer than we do and IMO are more likely to recover from a bad hit and also use the second shove as a weapon while we would prefer to hit hard and early, strike channel one and get the hell out of there.

If the hit was removed or nullified I wonder what effect that would have on technique.

[taniwharugby]

I have been timing a few of the crouch-touch-pause-engage calls the last couple of weeks, and they vary from about 5 sec to just under 9 sec, which is bloody ridiculous, I dont see the point of it, these guys are professionals, once they are set in place, touch-engage should be sufficient?

As for blowing it up when the ball is at the back, I think the ref should say to get it out immediately and if he doesnt, then blow it, but thats a whole other thread

[Scorz]

What about having the locks "hit". Have the front rows lean on each other, the second row hits, the ball goes in, it's all about stability while the rake goes on.

[NTA]

Scorz - looking at the video from the 80s you see the props get bound up and then everyone else arrives. Once the ball goes in the mayhem starts, but I don't know how much you'd generate with the locks hitting the props. Probably a bit on the dangerous side because they're hitting their own props in the arse or hammies.

Red Beard said:

I used to find being able to put my hand on the ground as a loosehead in the old days gave me a massive advantage over the tighthead. It allowed me to get readjust myself and then drive up underneath them. I didnt put my hand on the ground to keep the scrum up I did it to get more leverage so I could destroy the TH.

That comes down to nous - if he knows you're doing that, he can just drop all his weight onto your shoulders and neck before you drive up. I've been playing some tighthead lately and had a few guys who like to drive upwards (I'm one of those too ) . As a calculated risk, I just drop my whole weight on them and see if they can hold it up, because generally you're bugger all chance of using your abs to push down against their back muscles.

[Red Beard]

NTA said:

Scorz - looking at the video from the 80s you see the props get bound up and then everyone else arrives. Once the ball goes in the mayhem starts, but I don't know how much you'd generate with the locks hitting the props. Probably a bit on the dangerous side because they're hitting their own props in the arse or hammies.



That comes down to nous - if he knows you're doing that, he can just drop all his weight onto your shoulders and neck before you drive up. I've been playing some tighthead lately and had a few guys who like to drive upwards (I'm one of those too ) . As a calculated risk, I just drop my whole weight on them and see if they can hold it up, because generally you're bugger all chance of using your abs to push down against their back muscles.

I used drive straight down onto the back of the looseheads neck as often as possible. Squeeze them right down until they were panting heavily, then slip my bind and drift in on the hooker. Aghhhhh that felt good just typing about it.

[NTA]

Need a box of tissues there big fella?

[NTA]

Interesting situation today in Second Grade regarding scrum hits. I was playing loosehead, and Macquarie Uni had an overweight 6'2" (my estimate) ranga at tighthead. First couple of scrums he hit nicely and I was having to adjust a little to keep him up and contest, but I just started packing lower and lower until I started to dominate on their feed, turning about three scrums through 90 degrees. Their solution at this point was to send on this rangy kid who was even taller. I mused at the time that this may have been a tactical error on their part, but resolved not to underestimate yon string-beany chap as he was either completely insane or highly skilled (either is dangerous).

First scrum for young chap, their ball. Scrums go in for the hit and I nearly fell over from the lack of impact - just at the contact point. Ref pings me for pushing off the mark. When I tried to explain myself, he silenced me and told me to speak to the captain. Ball knocked on at next play (our feed this time), and when I get there to bind up, I turn to the skipper (#9 - standing just behind the ref), and ask loudly "Please skipper, can you inform the ref that I am not pushing on the engagement, it is just that they cannot hold the weight. I say this out of concern for player safety. Thankyou skipper". My skipper is rolling his eyes the whole time

In any case, from that point onwards I basically just sat there and let the young bloke get a clean shot on me every time, for fear of getting pinged again. Eventually I had to move to tight head because our bloke there was getting smashed. That was a more even contest though I always feel I'm at a disadvantage there (I don't really like THP but I'm getting used to it) but I got him nicely a couple of times too. Plenty of opportunities as we were camped in their line for about 10 minutes, but found it hard to get that elusive try. For the record we lost 19-15 after letting in two early tries to be 12-nil down.

Came on just before halftime for First Grade and slipped into second row (I could have propped but the bloke there - who was the same guy getting smashed at THP in 2nd Grade - was doing an OK job). Lost that one 34-29 after we decided we knew more than the ref. C'est la vie.

[NTA]

Today I propped against Tony Daly (ex-Wallaby RWC1991 winner for those who don't know). He's still a tricky old bastard and competitive (mouthy) as ever. Ref refused to penalise him for standing up or boring in, so it must have been my fault.

That is all.

[murph316]

I can't stand that pause before engage, its annoying and dangerous as both sides just want that hit! And some might jump the gun. Miss my scrummaging! Tight head, love binding above the loose heads arm, squeeze his arm down and shift my shoulder up and push him down with it.

[Chubby13]

The pause is a pain in the arse. The best the scrums have been in recent years was when they experimented in 2008 going back to couch, touch engage. Everyone was able to get the timing right and predict it brilliantly which resulted in better scrums as everybody was ready for it.

We used to be taught to get on the balls of our feet and get ready to explode out of the blocks, where as this season just gone we started to be taught to sit back on our feet a bit more so that we can hold in the set position for longer and have less chance of exploding early.

[Chubby13]

murph316 said:

I can't stand that pause before engage, its annoying and dangerous as both sides just want that hit! And some might jump the gun. Miss my scrummaging! Tight head, love binding above the loose heads arm, squeeze his arm down and shift my shoulder up and push him down with it.

Thats easy to manipulate the ref with that though. Complain to the ref about the tight head snapping my bind, then when he comes over go for an inside bind around the sternum or belly button and roll my shoulder down and in to over emphasise the tight head going for my bind. Nice easy way to get a penalty.

[Red Beard]

Chubby13 said:

The pause is a pain in the arse. The best the scrums have been in recent years was when they experimented in 2008 going back to couch, touch engage. Everyone was able to get the timing right and predict it brilliantly which resulted in better scrums as everybody was ready for it.

We used to be taught to get on the balls of our feet and get ready to explode out of the blocks, where as this season just gone we started to be taught to sit back on our feet a bit more so that we can hold in the set position for longer and have less chance of exploding early.

Heaps of packs I watch now seem to deliberatley pull back on the hit to win a penalty and the refs always fall for it. Makes sense to brace yourself and stay strong rather than rush in although I used to love the hit. The "pause" gives me the shits as well.

[BartMan]

yes RB, much more fun when you hit and hit hard. My theory used to be if it didn't work this time, we'll just hit harder. Having a 130 kilo TH under your wing though helped no end. and a little LH (well, short anyway). WE couild arrow head all day long, and so long as I was bigger than opposite hooker, we'd smash scrums up!!

[mooshld]

The league I play in here in Paris has removed the hit. Not seen a scrum penalty yet, and you still get the occasional tighthead. Means almost anyone can step in and prop so we never go to uncontested either. This is a senior league, I am not sure if its a trial or something my French is not good enough to fully understand the reasoning behind it.

The one thing I would say is it seems to give the lossies a flyer as they never seem to bother pushing to much.

[Chubby13]

I would hate if that was adopted in NZ. It would basically be the end of the need for big bastards in the tight five and would turn the entire forward pack into loose forwards. Itll be a safety trial, but one which will make the sport one step closer to league.

[mooshld]

Not sure I agree with that, we win a load of tight heads as we have two massive props. So you have to balance their size against their mobility as you would have back in the day.

Chubby13 said:

I would hate if that was adopted in NZ. It would basically be the end of the need for big bastards in the tight five and would turn the entire forward pack into loose forwards. Itll be a safety trial, but one which will make the sport one step closer to league.

[Wreck Diver]

my 2 cents on this is that the HIT and the missing of the bind because of it along with the added fashion of fitted jerseys creates most of the problems (collapsed scrum and reset that is). So remove the HIT and enforce the law of not binding on the arm and let the packs scrummage STRAIGHT. The ref then only has to watch for boring in and whether they pulled the scrum down or stood up.
its plan to see that the charge of the light brigade that we have at the moment isnt working. This is just a half backs option.:yes: and yes if the ref let me get away with it i would put the ball in crooked all day and not one of my hookers ever complained.

[Thomond78]

Red Beard, on 07 May 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

I used drive straight down onto the back of the looseheads neck as often as possible. Squeeze them right down until they were panting heavily, then slip my bind and drift in on the hooker. Aghhhhh that felt good just typing about it.

Or the look-him-out, point-of-shoulder-into-back-of-neck, roll of the arm over and squeeze. Then go after the hooker.

Depower the hit as much as possible. It's dangerous, it adds to the collapses, it rewards just being able to hit and not scrummage, and to work it requires crooked feeds; no point in a huge hit if the ref requires the scrum to be steady and on the mark as the laws require.

Bring back Old Skool scrummaging, and Old Skool props will once again thrive. Which is a good thing for all concerned.