23 replies to this topic

[NTA]

So on Saturday I had to run the line for both our Grades because no-one else was there to do it (and the 2nd Grade ref pissed off before First Grade kicked off).

In any case, I gave the 2nd Grade ref some advice on his positioning (he kept facing the blind side and missed heaps of offside play by the defending side as a result). He was happy to take that on board which is good. There are a few refs like that in Sydney who will at least take some advice on board from a player point of view (and you all know how I love my point of view )

The First Grade ref was a bit of an up-himself type (we have had him before), but despite that ran a reasonable game. I stated straight up before the game that I was not a "badged" assistant ref but I'd done the foundation courses etc. that we run in Australia for the coaching stuff, which includes refereeing. However, his basic Laws knowledge was a bit off.

19.8 (j) states that the non-throwing team must have one player between the sideline and 5m line. The player must be two metres from the lineout, and 2m from the line of touch - essentially this rule was introduced only a couple of seasons back to stop defending sides getting an extra lifter in the lineout (hooker lifting from within 5m).

After the first few lineouts I stepped onto the field and, well out of earshot of the players, mentioned that hookers from both sides were standing on the line of touch, sometimes inside the gap. Its not a big thing but it is something that needs to be done correctly. He basically thanked me, then said he was happy with things the way they were.

There was a ref's assessor there so hopefully that got sorted out after, but how can these guys expect to climb the reffing ranks when they won't even look at the basic things? Let's face it, there are a few certain things as a ref you can get absolutely right, and the set piece initiation is one of them. Rucks are a damn sight more difficult in the big scheme of things, so when the opportunity presents itself for a clear-cut enforcement of the Laws, wouldn't you take it?

Ah... vented now... all better.

[Crucial]

I think it happens to all of us each weekend Nick. Our College team on Saturday was playing a bunch of head hunters from down the road. The Ref only spotted 3 high shots out of about a dozen before finally one of our guys got flattened and the card was pulled out. This was despite our captain telling him he was struggling to keep tempers in check due to all the head shots and no arm charges (friggin league players).

It's a real struggle when you are running the touch but the ref won't listen to what you are seeing because you aren't badged. I can understand it from a bias point of view but sometimes it goes the other way. I had a player side his leg into touch just before grounding the ball for a try and put my flag up but had to say it was my opinion and the call on the try would be his. He gave benefit of the doubt.

It's just the way it goes but it gets damn frustrating at times.

I do concede that I get unprofessional at times and give a bit of loud 'advice' but always ensure I apologise after and shake his hand. The reason I run the touch is because it keeps my mouth in check more than it would be if I was just on the sideline.

[BartMan]

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yes, that hooker rule makes life easier for the throwing team, and is a good rule - when it's bloody ruled on!!

[NTA]

New one today - one of our wingers gets spear tackled face-first into the deck. Hips above shoulders, driven straight in. I get there (from my post as a non-badged TJ) as the melee breaks out and start picking bits of turf out of his teeth. Ref and the home side's "badged" TJ say there was nothing in it. Like fuck.

Same ref earlier in the game didn't stop play when one of our blokes knocked himself out attempting a tackle. Fuckwit. Complaints have been written and will be sent early Monday.

[Crucial]

The Laws of rugby are a bizzarre thing at times and so much is down to refs interpretation or 'Processes' that it becomes very inconsistent game to game.

last week we had a ref that wouldn't call a ball 'out' of a ruck until it was well clear of it and the first few times the team called 'hands on' and came around he penalised them. That's ok but yesterday we had the opposite and a ref that called it ok as soon as someone touched the ball.
Some weeks a ref won't allow early jumping in the lineout yet yesterday the opposition was putting up a jumper well before the hoooker had started his throw and despite pleas the ref would not call the early jump. At one point we even said to the hooker 'if they throw someone up early just hold the ball' at which the ref said 'if he does that I'll do him for delaying the throw'. I questioned the ref after the game how he came to that conclusion and he said it was his 'process' at the lineout that he placed a first priority on the hooker not delaying the throw. Sounds fine in theory but that means he is completely negating the early jump law. I asked 'in what circumstances do you then apply the early jump law' and he said ' when it's an early jump' to which I said 'well it's an early jump if they jump before the ball leaves the hookers hand' at which he replied 'I go back to my process and think he has delayed the throw'.....can't win.

[Kirwan]

That's just embarrassing. Did you laugh when he said that? Certainly worth mocking that poor logic.

[NTA]

Wow Crucial... that's just idiocy.

Are you guys getting focus on the new tackle assist Laws? i.e. if I bring someone to ground, but don't go to ground myself, I MUST release them before going for the ball.

[Crucial]

NTA said:

Wow Crucial... that's just idiocy.

Are you guys getting focus on the new tackle assist Laws? i.e. if I bring someone to ground, but don't go to ground myself, I MUST release them before going for the ball.

Yeah, they are trying but to be honest you have to be a pretty good ref to get these right all the time. At school level we are well down the pecking order for decent refs so can't expect too much.

With the lineout thing I can see what the guy was getting at in that he was saying that IF you hold the throw because someone has jumped he will penalise you as in the order of the laws 'fdelaying the throw' comes before 'jumping early'. The problem was that he wasn't calling the early jump so what is the hooker to do? Even Stu Dickheadson called an early jump the other night.
If you can trust the ref to call it you can at least throw the ball in but if he isn't calling it you are resigned to either adjusting the throw or giving a free kick for delays.

[NTA]

We use "claps" for our guys on the new tackle rule - you bring him to ground, clap, and then by rights you must have released him.

[Crucial]

NTA said:

We use "claps" for our guys on the new tackle rule - you bring him to ground, clap, and then by rights you must have released him.

good idea

[NTA]

Especially for youngsters or those new to the game (i.e. the league chaps).

I am now a badged Assistant Ref Level 1. Ho Ho Ho...

[Crucial]

NTA said:

Especially for youngsters or those new to the game (i.e. the league chaps).

I am now a badged Assistant Ref Level 1. Ho Ho Ho...

Do you guys have rules around ARs running touch at a game when it hasn't been arranged to have ARs on both sides? My understanding is that it is up to the ref in that situation.

The reason I ask is that we had a game for the school 1sts the other week where there was a fairly new ref in charge. A 'badged' guy also turned up and was running touch on one side with just a volunteer marking the touchline on the other. It wasn't an issue as we thought he was there to hold the refs hand, so to speak.

The Ref, due to his inexperience was letting the teams pile into breakdowns from all angles and flop over. It was a bigger concern for us as we were on the wrong end of it playing wise and were finding it frustrating to get into the game. I mentioned it quitely to the AR just before half time hoping that he might have a word to the ref to tighten up that area a bit. I don't think he did, as nothing changed. our frustration grew and there was some pretty innocuous hangbags stuff at one stage. Well this AR sticks his flag out and reports one of our players and gets him yellowed. I thought this was a bit unfair as there had been incidents on the other side of the field as well that no one could report. But hey, that's just luck and if it was deserved it was deserved.

What pissed me off though was that after the game our lot had all gone to the sheds and the other team stayed out around the ground (couldn't lower themselves to use our sheds). The AR is high fiving them and in their huddle. It turns out he was just an 'off duty' badged ref who had come in his refs trackies to run the touch for his mate's team. It was not a good look at all.

[NTA]

That is a bit fucked. The reason I did the qualification course (three hour session at Tahs HQ + an online exam) is that we didn't have a badged AR and other teams did. I was sick of us not having equal say on stuff the ref didn't see, or did see but from the wrong angle. The refs here are happy to let you run the line if you're not badged and the other guy is, but won't take much in the way of advice from you beyond finding touch. Even then I've been overruled once or twice and am happy to take the ref's judgement on that. Like tennis, the man in the chair can overrule you if he thinks it necessary.

The advice we got from the ref running the course - and he wasn't being condescending, just stating the way it is - go up to the ref before the game and introduce yourself. State that you're qualified, and then ask him what he wants of you. If he wants you to just stick your flag up when the ball goes out, then handle that. If he asks more of you, do it to the best of your ability, in an unbiased a manner as you can manage. After all, he can get you replaced if he likes

[Crucial]

Here's a good one for you.

I was running touch on Saturday and marked a lineout. The Ref came right up to the line to sight his mark and I took the opprtunity to quietly ask that he make the non throwing hooker stand in the right place (the 2 and 2 rule). The Ref turns around and tell the Hooker to stand in the old spot in front of his line. I said 'he's meant to be 2 metres back" and the ref tells me to learn the Laws properly.

I know the whole world loves a smartarse so when I handed him his flag back at the end of the game suggested he read Law 19.8 (j) before he next has to sit an exam. The perils of having an iPhone with the IRB Laws App loaded up.

[NTA]

Oooooh! STUNG!

Do they have an Android version?

[Damo]

Quote

After the first few lineouts I stepped onto the field and, well out of earshot of the players, mentioned that hookers from both sides were standing on the line of touch, sometimes inside the gap. Its not a big thing but it is something that needs to be done correctly. He basically thanked me, then said he was happy with things the way they were.

FWIW as a referee that is about last on my list of priorities at a lineout. If a hometown AR told me about it I would take exactly the same approach as he did. So long as the hooker are not standing there eyeballing the thrower or shouting insults, or taking part in the lifting I don't really care where within the 5 metres they stand. I can also assure you that the refs assessor would not have made mention of it. Determining materiality is an important part of refereeing.

Must have been a very clean and well refereed game if that was your biggest complaint!

[Crucial]

Damo said:

FWIW as a referee that is about last on my list of priorities at a lineout. If a hometown AR told me about it I would take exactly the same approach as he did. So long as the hooker are not standing there eyeballing the thrower or shouting insults, or taking part in the lifting I don't really care where within the 5 metres they stand. I can also assure you that the refs assessor would not have made mention of it. Determining materiality is an important part of refereeing.

Must have been a very clean and well refereed game if that was your biggest complaint!

Typical attitude that gets refs the reputation of being dickheads sometimes.
Do you not realize that coaches and teams prepare using the Law book that you are entrusted to uphold?
How do you know how material the effect is? In this case the team had actually practiced moves around the front of the Lineout that they were unable to use because the ref wasn't upholding the law.
In the example I used the ref didn't even know the law.

[Damo]

Crucial said:

Typical attitude that gets refs the reputation of being dickheads sometimes.
Do you not realize that coaches and teams prepare using the Law book that you are entrusted to uphold?
How do you know how material the effect is? In this case the team had actually practiced moves around the front of the Lineout that they were unable to use because the ref wasn't upholding the law.
In the example I used the ref didn't even know the law.

Well if it was material I would deal with it. If it wasn't then I probably wouldn't notice it. The opposing hooker only has to stand 2x2 until the ball leaves the hand of the thrower. The instant the ball leaves the hand he can move in line with the line of touch if he wants to (amongst other options). So, as I said, so long as he is not materially impacting the play by eyeballing, shouting or taking part in the lifting, its very low on the list of priorities. Far higher up the list, is

a)the gap,
b)where the receiver is (and making sure there is only 1),
c)numbers (and whether the defending team has been given enough time to adjust)
d)the backline being back the full 10metres (and staying there until ball leaves LoT)
e)ensuring there is no interference,
f)no closing the gap early,
g)no balking
h)the ball goes in straight (remember if there are only hometown TJ's we are legally not allowed to take advice from them on this)

Now as a referee I will do my best to ensure that the lineout is fair to both teams. I am not hugely worried about a player who is allowed to move into a position immediately after the ball has been thrown. If that makes me a 'dickhead' then so be it, I suggest you take up a whistle yourself and see how you fare.

[Crucial]

So why is it less important for the opposing hooker not to stand in the correct space than, say, a lineout jumper? They both possibly have an effect on the options available.
Perhaps you should coach a team and see how frustrating it can be to be at the whim of what the man on the day sees as important and what is not. Believe me, consistency is non existent.
We all know it's a difficult job do do well, but so is coaching and playing. The difference in attitude is that refs insist that they know best even after making mistakes.
I'm not anti-refs, just wish more of them would try and work alongside the very people who are playing the game instead of going out of the way to stamp their own interpretation on the game.
For what it's worth, I think I would make a good job of reffing. I just choose to devote my energies into other aspects of the game.

[Damo]

Let me put it this way.

In 5 years of reffing at all sorts of grades, I cannot ever remember an issue with where the opposing hooker was standing. I can, however remember a lot of issues from TJ's who try to tell me to "do this" and enforce this law, and "watch out for this player", all despite the fact that the law is very specific that I cannot take advice from them. And many of whom were completely biased and offering very bad "advice"/law interpretation. The fact that on this occasion you were right does not change the fact that the ref was correct on principle to ignore you.

Unless you are an officially appointed AR or at least known to me from association meetings; just put the flag up when the ball goes out and keep your comments to yourself until after the game

[Crucial]

Damo said:

Let me put it this way.

In 5 years of reffing at all sorts of grades, I cannot ever remember an issue with where the opposing hooker was standing. I can, however remember a lot of issues from TJ's who try to tell me to "do this" and enforce this law, and "watch out for this player", all despite the fact that the law is very specific that I cannot take advice from them. And many of whom were completely biased and offering very bad "advice"/law interpretation. The fact that on this occasion you were right does not change the fact that the ref was correct on principle to ignore you.

Unless you are an officially appointed AR or at least known to me from association meetings; just put the flag up when the ball goes out and keep your comments to yourself until after the game

And here lies the arrogance that results in referees being respected (because they are necessary), but usually seen to wander off to their cars as a lonely figure at the end of the game.

I would never expect the ref to rule from comments from a 'hometown' touchie. In the example I gave it was merely a reminder that there was a law there that wasn't being enforced (because I understood that he had a lot of other things to be watching for as well) and that it was one that was effecting the options of the team. I didn't get upset about it or complain at the time. If you read my comments above you will see that I waited until after the game to mention it again to the ref, (who admitted that he didn't know the Law)

That you fail to understand the material effect of not enforcing the Law shows a lack of understanding of playing the game.

One of the main things I find unenjoyable about game day is the 'them vs us' attitude that in the majority of cases starts from the match official. Instead of joining in to the concept that all of us that are not playing are there to facilitate a safe, fair and enjoyable game for the players many officials go out of their way just to be officious.

I will fully admit to being no angel from the sideline over a number of years but as I have aged and seen what is worth getting upset about and what is not I try extremely hard to play along. My comments on this thread are just that, comments after the fact.

I know you guys have to put up with a lot of bullshit, but from my experiences of watching many refs performances the ones that enjoy the game and make it enjoyable for the players are the type who, in the example given, may have had a think about the request made at half time (or even a quick word of explanation). The ones that simply think "I don't listen to others at all" are usually the ones that ironically hear far more yelled at them from the sidelines.

[Damo]

I hear what you are saying. I think you would have a different attitude if you dealt with some of the TJ's and coaches (and captains) we have to put up with, especially at colt and senior reserve grades. Just I'd never noticed that where the opposing hooker stands as being an issue, maybe it is.

Truce?

[Crucial]

I have no gripe with you, just trying to get you to understand a point.

To explain further, if the opposing hooker (although it can be any player) is starting from 2 metres back then you have a few options up your sleeve. Often they are not 'on the ball' and focussed on defending the 5 metre channel which means that a short ball to the front man in your lineout will almost always get you past the opposition forwards. Quick ball from that will either catch them offside or at least give you good ball to the 10. You can also do a double blind move with quick ball to the winger that has come up to take a short pass.

If you train for these options and can't use them in the game then IMO it is 'Material effect' on your ability to play your options.

I can understand why, in your lineout checklist, it may be down the page, but it is still a law in the books and as such it should be expected to be upheld. If someone asks respectfully that you enforce it I don't see why the reaction should be to ignore them. That is being totally defensive and in the example that started this discussion the reaction wasn't to just ignore, it was to aggressively tell me to "shut up and learn the laws" hence the pleasure in pointing out the Laws at the end of the game.

Since that game I always mentioned it in the pre game discussion with the ref. Just pointed out that we had some moves that relied on that Law being enforced and asked for cooperation. It only ever took the first lineout for the ref to set his expectation of where players stood and it was good for the rest of the game.

Communication and cooperation goes a long way.

[NTA]

I take the point about material effect - hate Laws for the sake of it.

But, as Crucial says, that suggestion is not taken on board and it costs one team an opportunity to score points, then it is a failure on behalf of the ref.

It isn't an easy job, but any rugby fan knows that. When you decide you want to be a ref, you accept that there are shitloads of Laws and that any assistance you can get is gold.