43 replies to this topic

[Ali's Choice]

Players stay with teams for many reasons. Moreover established senior players in NZ generally don’t change franchises unless they have issues with the coach or can’t get regular starts. And whilst I think loyalty should be commended I think it is worth considering which players would further their careers, and improve their representative chances, if they moved S15 franchises.

Matt Todd is a highly talented specialist opensider who would be the starting no.7 for most test playing nations based on the form he has shown at S15 and ITM Cup level. Yet the reality is Richie McCaw has re-signed till 2015, he will not be leaving the Crusaders, and as long as Todd is not commanding a starting spot at Super Rugby level he won’t seriously be able to challenge for an All Black position. Teams like the Highlanders and Hurricanes would certainly benefit from having Todd on his books, and as a unabashed Crusaders fan I certainly accept that the young man must leave Christchurch to further his career. And I’ll be disappointed when that happens because I think he’s going to be a no.7 of the highest quality.

Sam Cane is already considered one of the hottest young talents in New Zealand rugby. But because he has stayed loyal to the Chiefs, in the short term at least he’s going to struggle to impress at S15 level. And mainly because he’s competeing with two high quality and vastly experienced openside flankers in Latimer and Waldrom. Like Matt Todd, Sam Cane is potentially good enough to be a rep player right now, but he’s going to struggle as long as he can’t command a regular starting spot at Super Rugby level.

Ben Franks really should be pressing for the All Black no.1 jersey. But so long as he stays with the Crusaders he is always going to be heavily rotated due to their propping quality and struggle to shrug off the ‘utility prop’ tag. Sure he is a current representative player, but one wonders if he could be a starting All Black if he was at the Hurricanes, Chiefs or Highlanders.

Alby Mathewson must wake up with nightmares of Piri Weepu stalking his every move. Because the talented half back, having played second fiddle to Weepu for so many years in Wellington, once again finds himself competing with the rotund starting All Black for a spot at the Blues. Sure Weepu has announced that he would like to establish himself as a first five, but the reality is that when fit and in form he is the best halfback in New Zealand and I expect him to play serious minutes at the base of the scrum this year.

[mimic]

Ali's Choice said:

Matt Todd is a highly talented specialist opensider who would be the starting no.7 for most test playing nations based on the form he has shown at S15 and ITM Cup level.

ur claim is a bit out there dont u think?
of the big 10 (6nations + 4nations), he's only got a shot at Italy, Scotland, Argentina and maybe England.

wales, ireland, france, oz, saffas (and ofcourse nz) all have world class opensides imo..

Although, I believe a little competition will drive a player to be better sometimes.. It depends on the player..

[Ali's Choice]

mimic said:

ur claim is a bit out there dont u think?
of the big 10 (6nations + 4nations), he's only got a shot at Italy, Scotland, Argentina and maybe England.

wales, ireland, france, oz, saffas (and ofcourse nz) all have world class opensides imo..

Although, I believe a little competition will drive a player to be better sometimes.. It depends on the player..

How many test playing nations are there, a hundred or so? He wouldn't start for any of those you mentioned but would for most others going on ITM and S15 form.

[Highlander]

Matt Todd has to be one of the most overrated players in NZ rugby, the other young opensides in the country are clearly better they're just unlucky they don't get to play for Canterbury and the Crusaders. I doubt the Highlanders would take him when their probable starting 7 this year (Hardie) has outplayed him in every head to head match up they've had. Just another Canterbury 7 overrated by the media, remember George Whitelock? Everyone just wants another McCaw, but I'm sorry Todd is not him, or close to him.

[mimic]

lol.. so i guess you could make that claim for any of the players u listed.. which is a bit misleading imo..
heck.. every super rugby player would be starters for most test playing nations..

[Ali's Choice]

mimic said:

lol.. so i guess you could make that claim for any of the players u listed.. which is a bit misleading imo..
heck.. every super rugby player would be starters for most test playing nations..

Fair criticism. The reality is though that IMO Todd showed the best form of any NZ openside flanker last year at S15 level. I'm a rabid Crusaders fan, and Todd played better than McCaw last year at Super level. And in quite a few early to medium season games, he showed better form than any other Kiwi no.7. He's not yet the finished article, but IMO he is already a high quality player and exactly what we need in NZ, a specialist 7 to backup McCaw.

[Ali's Choice]

Highlander said:

Matt Todd has to be one of the most overrated players in NZ rugby, the other young opensides in the country are clearly better they're just unlucky they don't get to play for Canterbury and the Crusaders. I doubt the Highlanders would take him when their probable starting 7 this year (Hardie) has outplayed him in every head to head match up they've had. Just another Canterbury 7 overrated by the media, remember George Whitelock? Everyone just wants another McCaw, but I'm sorry Todd is not him, or close to him.

Sorry, but I have to disagree completely with your assertion that Hardie has outplayed Todd on every occasion. Case in point Canterbury's Ranfurly Shield win in 2010, when Todd played arguably the best game of any provincial Kiwi 7 that year, climaxing in his late game turnover on his own tryline, with Southland deep in attack, which effectively won Canterbury the game. And don't just take my word for it, Sir Graham Henry brought Todd into the AB training regime during the RWC when it looked like McCaw's foot might not heal. He could have chosen any other 7 to come into the fold, but he chose to fly Matt Todd up from Christchurch. Henry is a decent judge of talent.

[Highlander]

What about the Highlanders win in Nelson last year? What about Southland's successful Ranfurly shield challenges? I might add that Graham Henry has made some horrible mistakes in the past, one world cup win doesn't cover up his past failures. Look back at his selections and some non-selections over his coaching tenure and you'll see that he's made many mistakes.

[Ali's Choice]

Highlander said:

What about the Highlanders win in Nelson last year? What about Southland's successful Ranfurly shield challenges? I might add that Graham Henry has made some horrible mistakes in the past, one world cup win doesn't cover up his past failures. Look back at his selections and some non-selections over his coaching tenure and you'll see that he's made many mistakes.

Hardie has never been able to force his way into an established starting role for the Highlanders, over players such as Soakai. Moreover you can take individual games and take from them what you may, but Matt Todd has won a senior provincial title every year that he has played, despite Canterbury missing up to 12 of their best players to Ab duty..And you can bag Henry all you like for some of his selection experiments of his 8 year tenure but by the RWC he was choosing his A team, and his selections were spot on.

Edited by Ali's Choice, 01 February 2012 - 01:07 AM.

[Highlander]

He did however make schools and 19s over Todd and I would argue Southland has over achieved more greatly than Canterbury in recent years. 2nd time round lucky for Henry then eh?

[Ali's Choice]

Highlander said:

He did however make schools and 19s over Todd and I would argue Southland has over achieved more greatly than Canterbury in recent years. 2nd time round lucky for Henry then eh?

Canterbury have won 4 provincial titles in a row and you're seriously suggesting that the newly relegated Southland have "achieved" more in "recent years"? Again I respectfully disagree.

[Highlander]

2 successful ranfurly shield tenures in the past 3 years isn't bad is it considering they hadn't won it in over 50 years? How many titles have Canterbury won? With their talent they should be winning every year.

[Ali's Choice]

Highlander said:

2 successful ranfurly shield tenures in the past 3 years isn't bad is it considering they hadn't won it in over 50 years? How many titles have Canterbury won? With their talent they should be winning every year.

Southland have breached the salary cap in two of the past three years. They have received an NZRU loan to pay for their overspending and their starting team this year, which was relegated, was more experienced in terms of provincial caps than Canterbury's. There are many ABs in the Canterbury squad, but few have contributed in a significant way to their title success in recent years.

[Highlander]

You'll find that the breach was very small and that many of the contracts were signed before the salary cap was lowered. Whatever way you want to put it, Southland have exceeded expectations far more than Canterbury have in the past 3 or 4 years. Playing for a good team does not necessarily make you a better player than someone in a less talented team, Canterbury have a production line of talent (and when its not being produced they buy it in) while Southland punch well above their weight with limited resources.

[Frank]

Graham Henry and co. didn't seem to think Hardie was better than Todd.

I think I'll go with their opinion.

[Scorz]

Good thread idea that's degenerated into a scrap... Why should Todd move when he gets time while McCaw rests every year anyway?

[ploughboy]

i would imagine cane will be the first pick 7 for the chiefs.

[Scorz]

With Latimer as back up/sub. Really hoping one of those two has a big season.

Mathewson should move again imo. He's back to being stuck behind Weepu!
Highlanders would have been a decent fit.

[Crucial]

Scorz said:

Good thread idea that's degenerated into a scrap... Why should Todd move when he gets time while McCaw rests every year anyway?

...and playing in a Crusaders pack makes him (possibly) look better than he is.

I would have said that Scott Waldrom was the form 'non-McCaw' seven running around in 2011 anyway.

I think part of Todd's AB training call up as an emergency was his familiarity with others in the pack.

Todd is a very good player, but to say he is clearly ahead of other contenders is simply not true.

Back to the original premise of the thread though.... I think many players are better of fighting for their place in a good competitive squad rather than having an easy path elsewhere. If you are genuinely being held back and not getting opportunities then it's worth looking elsewhere. But if you can show your wares comparitively against the best then all the better. Using Todd as an example again, I think some of the reason he got media attention was that the team didn't lose much with him playing instead of McCaw. That makes him look very good. If he was to have played in the Canes rabble of a pack he would have looked merely OK.

[Crucial]

Scorz said:

With Latimer as back up/sub. Really hoping one of those two has a big season.

Mathewson should move again imo. He's back to being stuck behind Weepu!
Highlanders would have been a decent fit.

Only if Aaron Smith came to the Canes. Otherwise Alby should just return home.

[taniwharugby]

Must admit I havent followed alot of the news that closely, but have the Cartel come out and said they flew Todd up in the RWC because of McCaws foot?

IIRC all the media at the time was that Todd was in Auckland to replace McCaw, but the Cartel never said this, they claimed he was just in Auckland along with a few other players no where near AB selection were in practice sessions.

Also, IIRC Hansen even poo pood the idea they got Todd in specifically because eh was the most similar 7 to Pocock, he was a quality 7 in Auckland when they wanted some live opposition.

[tubbyj]

Agree Todd is the equal of Pocock in the turnover. Very similar technique and that is why the All Blacks called him in to practice blowing that technique out. His defense is not good enough for the All Blacks.

McCaw was never not going to play. Only a complete prevention of the ability to run would have stopped him and then Scott Waldrom would have been next cab off the block on experience and form in the ITM Cup.

[tubbyj]

Lelia Masaga would be my pick.

He gets branded flakey because of the Chiefs flakiness.

If he went to the Crusaders he would be an All Black within a season and everyone would be raving about how the great team culture was the making of him whether or not it actually was.

[Ali's Choice]

Not a lot of love for Matt Todd on this thread. Whilst I'm a fan and so may be a bit biased when I watch the Crusaders play, I genuinely rate him as a player and think he's the most talented of the next crop of young 7s coming through the system. I guess he'll have the chance to prove some of his doubters wrong early in the season with McCaw out for up to a month.

[Nepia]

Where would Todd go? Blues or Canes. Canes are a death trap at the moment so they'd be best avoided and they do have Lowe. The Blues have the Braids.

There's no point him going to the Chiefs or Highlanders as they have pretty good 7 options as well.

So basically the best place for Todd is playing games when McCaw is injured/rested/playing 8.

Waldrom played at another level to most 7s last year and is probably unlucky that he's nearly the same age as McCaw.

[tubbyj]

Ali's Choice said:

Not a lot of love for Matt Todd on this thread. Whilst I'm a fan and so may be a bit biased when I watch the Crusaders play, I genuinely rate him as a player and think he's the most talented of the next crop of young 7s coming through the system. I guess he'll have the chance to prove some of his doubters wrong early in the season with McCaw out for up to a month.

I think he is very talented definitely the best fetcher in the NZ game but his falling off head on head tackles leading to tey scoring breaks has been a work ever since he first emerged. He has to go a season where he hardly misses a tackle then he will make the All Blacks. The WC final proved that defense is the non negotiable in a players game.

[Nepia]

Ali's Choice said:

Not a lot of love for Matt Todd on this thread. Whilst I'm a fan and so may be a bit biased when I watch the Crusaders play, I genuinely rate him as a player and think he's the most talented of the next crop of young 7s coming through the system. I guess he'll have the chance to prove some of his doubters wrong early in the season with McCaw out for up to a month.

I think a lot of it is to do with media hype. They hyped him up like crazy that first year and then in the 2nd when people started analysing his game the chinks started to appear. Plus, some players get promoted due to teams they play in (Broomhall, McCahill etc) more than their ability so Todd has to prove he has the goods in a non Rolls Royce team.

tubby J: Masaga has played for the ABs, and to be fair he's been shit the last couple of years (flaky Chiefs or not), plus he's not the style of wing the ABs wanted over the last few years - remember that Gear was overlooked!

[Crucial]

At least Todd now has the front running position to be the 2012 TSF 'Toeava'. Just need to get Davidav on board...

[Mooloo]

Nepia said:

Masaga has played for the ABs, and to be fair he's been shit the last couple of years (flaky Chiefs or not), plus he's not the style of wing the ABs wanted over the last few years - remember that Gear was overlooked!

Masaga also gets to play for the Steamers, and hardly set the world on fire there, despite it being a good team.

[Ali's Choice]

tubbyj said:

I think he is very talented definitely the best fetcher in the NZ game but his falling off head on head tackles leading to tey scoring breaks has been a work ever since he first emerged. He has to go a season where he hardly misses a tackle then he will make the All Blacks. The WC final proved that defense is the non negotiable in a players game.

I'm not convinced that he is the defensive liability many people believe him to be. And TBH, Keiran Read, Adam Thomson and Richie McCaw also miss quite a few tackles as well. Part of the reason why they and Todd miss a few is their fantastic work rates, they cover more ground and work harder defensively than many flankers who are happy to simply black the A and B defender channels or wait for turnover opportunities. It seems a lot of Crusaders players get a reputation for being poor defenders (Todd, Fruean, Maitland, Crockett, Ellis, in the past Ross etc) when the reality is they are one of the best defensive teams in SANZAR. Surely a team which has always has great defense couldn't be populated by so many weak defenders?