17 replies to this topic

[BartMan]

Now THAT's what I call a pitch invasion, fuck me...!!

73dead, 1000s injured, 47 arrests...

c'mon boys, it is JUST A GAME!!

http://www.stuff.co....t-football-riot

[Red Beard]

I often wonder what goes through some peoples minds. What motivates people to do something like that? Attack, maim and kill innocent bystanders over a game? Fuck its horrific.

[Sneakdefreak]

Just put some Islanders in security jackets around the field and no one will fucking move. Works at Mt Smart anyway.

[Mooloo]

Red Beard said:

I often wonder what goes through some peoples minds. What motivates people to do something like that? Attack, maim and kill innocent bystanders over a game? Fuck its horrific.

It is horrific, but the deaths were not caused directly by the fighting fans, at least as reported. They were crushed while fleeing or as a result of a fall.

No one set out to kill innocent bystanders, though a fair few clearly were prepared to fight opposition fans.

(There were horrific death tolls at Hillsborough and Heysel too, for similar reasons: crushing, falling etc.)

[Red Beard]

Mooloo said:

It is horrific, but the deaths were not caused directly by the fighting fans, at least as reported. They were crushed while fleeing or as a result of a fall.

No one set out to kill innocent bystanders, though a fair few clearly were prepared to fight opposition fans.

(There were horrific death tolls at Hillsborough and Heysel too, for similar reasons: crushing, falling etc.)

So the crushing wasnt linked to the violence and in anyway?

[darreninusa]

I read earlier that the 'fans' went to the game armed with knives, seems like it was all pre planned.

Found more info:
"The BBC's Jon Leyne in Cairo says it appears some fans had taken knives into the stadium."
"Officials say most of the deaths were caused by concussions, deep cuts to the heads and suffocation from the stampede."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-16848473

[Rancid Schnitzel]

Fark its a shame whats happening in that country. Went to the Red Sea coast in May last year and it was wonderful. Hope they can get their shit together but I'm not at all optimistic.

[Mooloo]

Red Beard said:

So the crushing wasnt linked to the violence and in anyway?

I didn't sat that, as you well know. I said the intention of some fans was to fight, but they had no intention to kill. It was a side effect of the fighting -- people rushing to get away -- that caused the deaths.

The difference is that between murder and manslaughter. One requires intention.

When lamenting about how evil humans can be, we should at least take some care to accuse them of the crimes they are actually guilty of.

[Red Beard]

Mooloo said:

I didn't sat that, as you well know. I said the intention of some fans was to fight, but they had no intention to kill. It was a side effect of the fighting -- people rushing to get away -- that caused the deaths.

The difference is that between murder and manslaughter. One requires intention.

When lamenting about how evil humans can be, we should at least take some care to accuse them of the crimes they are actually guilty of.

Well at the end of the day Mooloo many people died for no reason. It was avoidable, inexcusable and caused by the fighting/rioting fans.

[BartMan]

and they took the knives so they could cut the halftime oranges, nothing to do with attacking the players that the riot police had to attpemt to cordon off. This was pre planned. Those other stadium crushings were because the stadiums were plain and simplet too full wern't they, not because some idiots thought they'd rush at players and attack them etc etc etc.

I'm picking a few deaths would have ben from the riot police using extreme force to protect their and the players lives too, if some nutter was coming at me with a knife I would not be donking him on the arm with my long battens, nope, it would be on the head and put him out. If he never comes up for air again, oh well, now that's an accident, but it's a life or death situation (obviously), so you have to do what you have to do.

[Mooloo]

Red Beard said:

Well at the end of the day Mooloo many people died for no reason. It was avoidable, inexcusable and caused by the fighting/rioting fans.

True, but I never said otherwise.

Here's the rub though -- the way to prevent such deaths is as much about stadium design as about stopping rioting.

Properly designed stadiums, with good exit flows, do not suffer the same issues. Badly designed stadiums can see deaths even without any fighting (or fire), which was the lesson of Hillsborough.

(I suspect the carrying knives is a bit of red herring. In many parts of the world young men carry knives as a matter of course. In parts of the Americas they carry guns.)

[Baron Silas Greenback]

Football is far from a beautiful game. It is an incubater for racism, violence, corruption and greed.

[taniwharugby]

Quote

Properly designed stadiums, with good exit flows, do not suffer the same issues. Badly designed stadiums can see deaths even without any fighting (or fire), which was the lesson of Hillsborough.

I suspect the vast majority of Stadiums are not designed for this kind of scenario, more sedate exits and lower numbers entering pitch, again, in a less agressive fashion.

[BartMan]

Quote

Properly designed stadiums, with good exit flows, do not suffer the same issues. Badly designed stadiums can see deaths even without any fighting (or fire), which was the lesson of Hillsborough.

(I suspect the carrying knives is a bit of red herring. In many parts of the world young men carry knives as a matter of course. In parts of the Americas they carry guns.)

I don't think they carry guns into stadiums though...

and I don't think any amount of 'design' is going to stop deaths from riots!

[Mooloo]

BartMan said:

and I don't think any amount of 'design' is going to stop deaths from riots!

It's not the stadiums so much as the flow around entrance/exit. Generally the problem is that for security reason the stadiums want very tight entry points. When masses of people try to get in or out the crush ends up killing them. That's what happened at Hillsborough, when people tried to crowd in through too small a hole.

Better designed stadiums allow for the entry and exit points to be widened in the event of an emergency. They have a way of channeling the people into a safe area, but that still doesn't mean the usual entry points are so wide that they can't be monitored.

Most modern stadiums have much wider flow into the exits just in the stands part too. That's more to do with getting out in a fire, but has a flow on effect for riots. When I go to Waikato Stadium I notice how much quicker I get out of the Perry stand compared to how long it took to get out of the old embankment. That's good design.

A lot of money is spent to ensure that modern stadiums can be emptied quickly. Sometimes it is wasted when the locals then go and block the emergency exits (to stop them being used as entries) but good design does save lives.

Football went the next step and insisted on all seating as well. That helps reduce crowd densities, which helps with the exit issue.

[dejo]

This event was not just random football violence. The Cairo based Ultras (football casuals/hooligans) were major players in the initial uprising against Mubarek and the military junta last year, rallying protestors in Tahrir square and providing security etc (while the Muslim Brotherhood was noticeably absent).

Lots of analysts are saying this is payback by the security forces (the Cairo away fans were overwhelming victims) for their participation in the revolution. At the very least the security forces look to have been complicit in this act as a way of warning to the civilian population that Egypt can only be controlled by a strong military, and worst case, was possibly orchestrated by elements within the regime as revenge against Al Ahly.

to whoever said they could have solved it by ringing the field in big polynesian blokes - The Egyptian state has been controlling all forms of public communication, by tortue, intimidation, disappearances, murder, and fear, for decades. They let/encouraged this event to happen. Our polynesian bouncers in fluoro vests would be up shit creek without a paddle over there.

Edited by dejo, 04 February 2012 - 12:59 AM.
weird formating

[dejo]

Mooloo said:

True, but I never said otherwise.

Here's the rub though -- the way to prevent such deaths is as much about stadium design as about stopping rioting.

Properly designed stadiums, with good exit flows, do not suffer the same issues. Badly designed stadiums can see deaths even without any fighting (or fire), which was the lesson of Hillsborough.

(I suspect the carrying knives is a bit of red herring. In many parts of the world young men carry knives as a matter of course. In parts of the Americas they carry guns.)

Mooloo, This had nothing to do with Stadium design. It was an orchestrated act of violence, probably politically motivated. The intention was to maim/kill as many Cairo supporters as possible and given previous events/the ease with which the Port Said Ultras cascaded onto the pitch its pretty clear this was not a hillsborough type tragedy.

Regarding carrying guns/knives - yes - in many parts of the world they do. But not into football stadiums, even in super violent countries. I went to an Atlético Nacional (Pablo Escobar's club) game in Medellin, Colombia, in 2005, when the country was still recording more kidnappings than, and comparable murders, and other violent acts to, Iraq. To get into the stadium you had to pass a terrifying gauntlet of security - mounted police, metal detectors, body searches. They even confiscated my belt (I was naive enough not to realise my belt was classified as an offensive weapon). Even with all that there were no away fans present as it was considered too dangerous and they were banned. The egyptian state managed to impose a similiar monopoly on violence at such events despite to propensity for groups of ultras to go at it. Basically the state let this happen. Hence the mass escalating protests in Tahrir square today.

some links:

http://egyptianchron...for-egypt.html?

http://www.guardian....ords?intcmp=239

http://www.guardian....nism?intcmp=239

Edited by dejo, 04 February 2012 - 01:46 AM.
spelling

[Bay boy Tim]

Baron Silas Greenback said:

Football is far from a beautiful game. It is an incubater for racism, violence, corruption and greed.

Couldn't agree more.