Disturbing

[Red Beard]

I was in the senior class at Te Aroha Primary School today and asked the kids who were playing rugby this year to put their hands up. Out of 26 kids only ONE responded. Over 13 are playing kissball, the rest netball and hockey. The pleasing thing is that 25 kids out of 26 are actually playing a winter sport. But I was gobsmacked at the rugby figure.

TAP used to be the staunchest, brownest school in town. At one time they had Hoeft and Joe McDonnell eating their lunch together not to mention a heap of hombres who went onto play rep rugby like Rangi Wilson, Andrew Spraggon, Kieran Williams and the De Thierry boys. Real sign of the times though Im afraid. NZ society certainly changed dramatically in my lifetime. When the NZRU continually trot out these annual figures that playing numbers are on the up, is anyone else involved at grassroots level just a tad sceptical?

[Kirwan]

Is it realistic to extrapolate your experience of one classroom across the entire country? While I'm sure the figures are massaged (that's what statistics is after all), it only takes some classroom in Crusader country to wipe out your kissballer room. And your classroom could well take up rugby later, say like Eric Rush or Sivivatu did (the later from Soccer too, at 17).

[junior]

How old are the kids? The reason I ask is because, when I was growing up, soccer was the most played sport before age 11. I played soccer for 5 years before I ever played rugby and so did most of my friends. I think I read somewhere (here?) that this is still the case. Granted, I grew up in a suburb that had a strong(ish) soccer club (no rugby club) and large population of Italians and Dalmations (and their descendants). But - and this is something that Kirwan alluded to - the next suburb over was full of Islanders who played full contact rugby from the age of 3.

[Sneakdefreak]

Many parents make their kids play non-contact sports like soccer, netball etc and when they reach high school they start to play contact sports like rugby and league. Even some of my younger cousins play american football in the summer.
The NZ sporting scene is very similar to the US in my opinion- rise of middle class i.e soccer moms etc etc.

[Razbra]

My dad made my brother and I play kissball to learn how to kick off both feet. Then as soon as he was happy we were playing league/union.

[Paj]

Numbers are dropping for sure, all over the show. I have helped out at two schools over the last three years and in that time numbers have dropped by one team. School numbers haven't changed, and more girls are playing. Both Scools are Primary. Also work with a couple of young fella's, all 4 played rugby, only one is this year.
Takapau community has lost one of it's two teams in the last 3 years we have been around. Good news is CHB have been able to field a Colts team this year for the first time in 5 years, but numbers are low and if a few drop out then they will fold.
Sounds doom and gloom, maybe thats because it is?

[ploughboy]

at waitaki boys this year at least 3 of the first soccer team have decided to play rugby this year.and they had a good first eleven last year

[Red Beard]

Is it realistic to extrapolate your experience of one classroom across the entire country? While I'm sure the figures are massaged (that's what statistics is after all), it only takes some classroom in Crusader country to wipe out your kissballer room. And your classroom could well take up rugby later, say like Eric Rush or Sivivatu did (the later from Soccer too, at 17).

Kirwan many clubs in the Heartland provinces are struggling now just to field teams on Saturday. Interestingly the stumbling block is nearly always front rows, each team needs five competent ones to present to the ref before kickoff and they are as scarce as hens teeth. I do wonder if club rugby in minor unions will ever go to non contested scrums to avoid clubs dying out.

It could be down to urban drift but there just arent the players in the small towns anymore. Im in schools all the time in the Thames Valley/ Waikato region and while Ive never seen it as bad as this there is no doubt in my mind numbers are down all over the shop. Waikato even decided to amalgamate their two Roller Mills teams (it used to be Rangers and Rovers, basically North Waikato and South) a few seasons back for the first time in about 100 years. The junior players just arent there in South Waikato anymore. Tokoroa used to have three clubs in the Waikato First Division at one stage, now they have none. While rugby in the elite clubs major centres seems to be doing well, the base is eroding fast and that has to be a worry.

[Chiefy]

It might be an interesting study to keep track of a classroom like that one RB. Before they finish high school I bet most of them have played a few different sports. It could be the teacher for that particular class is a football fan, or one loud mouth has convinced all the others to play football or something. Over the next few years a natural balance will probably appear.

When I was 5 I started playing football, after 1 and a half games I told my parents I hated it and that I never wanted to play soccer again. When I was 7 I joined a rugby club and loved it, I played for a couple of season's before my cousins moved to a club half an hours drive away and a few other mates changed clubs and my team had changed completely. I got talked into taking up football again and stuck with it until the end of high school.

I remember about 10 years ago, Northland had a particularly good Development Officer for Rugby League and a lot of Northland's best young rugby players converted to league. It started with playing one saturday and one sunday, but soon changed to just playing league. This guy had such a good set up, he was identifying good rugby players and encouraged them to have a go at both sports and it worked a charm. He even used to spend alot of time right up north in the Kaitaia area finding guys that weren't getting a look in at rugby and would organise transport for them down to trainings and games. He organised everything for them, tracksuits, transport etc Literally all the guys had to do was play, and that's what enticed alot of them to throw their lot in with Rugby League. Guys like Adam Blair, Iwi Hauraki and Jonathan Tavinor all got spots with NRL clubs (although Hauraki is back for the Taniwha's this year) instead of Northland or whoever in rugby. Northland then started dominating in the juniors for a couple of seasons before he left and then once he had gone, the regular balance pretty much resumed. But to me it shows how different influences can affect certain age groups and why they choose to play a certain sport.

Just my long winded take on why it might not be as disturbing as it first appears...

[Baron Silas Greenback]

Numbers are up in Tga, my nepehew couldnt get into any of the 3 teams in the U12 age bracket fior his club last year, so he was going to another club, but they were reluctant as well due to large numbers, but luckily the original club put in a 4th team.

And the Roller Mills wouldnt have dropped teams due to lack of numbers, that makes zero sense.

[Red Beard]

Numbers are up in Tga, my nepehew couldnt get into any of the 3 teams in the U12 age bracket fior his club last year, so he was going to another club, but they were reluctant as well due to large numbers, but luckily the original club put in a 4th team.

And the Roller Mills wouldnt have dropped teams due to lack of numbers, that makes zero sense.

If you cant find enough players to form a competitive representative team it makes perfect sense.

They were getting whopped in the Roller Mills tournament time and time again (because they justy dont have the volume or quality of players anymore) like Valley and King Country and were no longer competitive. Another issue was finding parents who are able to leave work early and get the kids to and from training mideweek plus provide transport for two games ever weekend. Now its worse for the South Waikato kids who make the Roller Mills, their parents will have to get them to training in Hamilton or Cambridge twice a week instead.

Imagaine being a parent from Mercury Bay who has to drive little Johnny twice a week to training in Paeroa at 330pm, also go to Saturday morning rugby , then drive somewhere like Te Kuiti on Sunday for a rep game. Many parents just dont want to cant aford to do it anymore. And that mountain range is a killer to cross eight times a week. Ive managed a Roller Mills side and the contribution parents make towards the team being a success is vital.

Im not surporised rugby is doing well in TGA, fastest growing city and all that. As the end of the day if you have lots of people living close together you should have lots of teams. The danger is for the rural areas that if rugby slowly fades away there wont be a place for the late developer or kid from an unfashionable school to make the big time. And I dont think rugby can afford to lose its wide base.

[Baron Silas Greenback]

Teams get whopped in the Roller Mills every year. Look at some of the BOP teams. They have been getting ass kickings since moses wore shorts. Thats no excuse to drop a rep side. Parents getting lazier? Thats a valid reason, but not rugbies fault, just a sad indication fo societies path. And def nothing the rugby union can do about it.

Lack of player numbers isnt a valid reason to drop a rep team unless player numbers in the entire south Waikato in that age group have got less than 30. Have they?

[Baron Silas Greenback]

Im not surporised rugby is doing well in TGA, fastest growing city and all that.

And I am not surprised it is struggling in Te Aroha.. funny how these things even out aint it.

[FredDagg1979]

Kirwan many clubs in the Heartland provinces are struggling now just to field teams on Saturday. Interestingly the stumbling block is nearly always front rows, each team needs five competent ones to present to the ref before kickoff and they are as scarce as hens teeth. I do wonder if club rugby in minor unions will ever go to non contested scrums to avoid clubs dying out.

It could be down to urban drift but there just arent the players in the small towns anymore.

I think it is down to urban drift RB and that has been happening for 30 years and there isn't anything we can do to halt that. This issue affects all facets of provincial life - I'm involved with a school who's roll is down to 35. While Rugby's Heartland is the provinces, the new frontline in the battle with other sports is in the urban areas because that is where the growth is and that is where the children are.

[BartMan]

Whangamata had 162 odd kids playing rugby last year - down two teams this year, as two of the grades have 12 players, but because of the strict weight grtades, they can't field teams, so these kids will not be playing rugbyu. want to, but cant. Hopefully they will play some sport, the only one left in town is soccer. Junior Rugby - the under 5s, basically every kis in school is play rugby. This is because Junior rugby is so well run in town it is not funny. Keen parents, keen admins, and it works.

Also, this is Soccer world cup year, so that IS going to have a effect. I rmemeber in 82 I was ready to throw in my rugby boots and play soccer. But there were no soccer teams to play for, so I carried on with rugby. I am sure I wouls have only played for one year though, as rugby is what I do!!

That is going to have to happen one day though RB - uncontested scrums, perhaps below senior A level, just to get people playing code. Dad plays, so kids will follow!!

[red terror]

OTOH, participation in the women's game has gone up, yes? (Or no?)

[Red Beard]

Teams get whopped in the Roller Mills every year. Look at some of the BOP teams. They have been getting ass kickings since moses wore shorts. Thats no excuse to drop a rep side. Parents getting lazier? Thats a valid reason, but not rugbies fault, just a sad indication fo societies path. And def nothing the rugby union can do about it.

Lack of player numbers isnt a valid reason to drop a rep team unless player numbers in the entire south Waikato in that age group have got less than 30. Have they?

No question parents are getting lazier, totally agree with you there. Ive been coaching Yr 3/4 cricket this year and most of our parents cant even be arsed coming to the door to see their kids off in the morning. Not surprisingly they are also the kids who cant bowl, or throw or catch!

Reagrding Roller Mills the likes of Auckland East for example must have about 10 000 boys weighing between 50 and 55 kgs to select from while Valley have less than 100. The like sof South Waikato or King Country may have twice that many but its still chicekn feed compared to their more illustrious opponents. In fact before they started the mid tournament second weigh in the Auckland sides used to pick boys weighing in the mid 60s, starve them down for the Sunday weigh in and give them two or three days to bulk up again not playing them until Wednesday or Thursday of tournament week. In comparison when I managed the Valley we had half of our squad weighed around the 45kg mark. Conceding 15 plus kgs is not a contest in an elite priamry schools comp.

I think Thames Valley has scored something like 3 tries in their last two Roller Mills Tournaments and conceeded about 300 points. Its become unsustainable to keep participating at that level, Im sure thats what Waikato decided. I know in the Valley, lots of kids dont want to play Roller Mills anymore because they know they are going to get spanked.

A more proactive approach IMO would be for the likes of Valley, Rovers, KC, East Coast... to have their own Heartland Primary Schools tourney instead of Roller Mills. The traditionalists may not like it but tough shit.

Urban drift is certainly another factor. The College roll has halved in the last ten years here in TA. Families have moved away in search of better work opportunities, and more kids commute to Hamilton for school than ever before. The challenge is though for rugby continues in the rural areas. There has to be a place for the late bloomers like say a Keith Robinson to make it to the top without having to attend Hamilton Boys High or Tauranga Boys College.

King Country are the most interesting example. First Division in 1993, good enough to beat Wellington and Canterbury but finished in the bottm half of Heartland last season. How much longer can the small unions realistically survive? It maybe time for mass amalgamations with some of the ANZ Cup unions.

Just looking at the respective crowds rolling up at the Caketin recently and what I saw yesterday though, we had better watch those soccer bastards closely.

[Red Beard]

And I am not surprised it is struggling in Te Aroha.. funny how these things even out aint it.

How so? I dont think we were ever better than Tauranga at rugby!

[Red Beard]

Whangamata had 162 odd kids playing rugby last year - down two teams this year, as two of the grades have 12 players, but because of the strict weight grtades, they can't field teams, so these kids will not be playing rugbyu. want to, but cant. Hopefully they will play some sport, the only one left in town is soccer. Junior Rugby - the under 5s, basically every kis in school is play rugby. This is because Junior rugby is so well run in town it is not funny. Keen parents, keen admins, and it works.

Also, this is Soccer world cup year, so that IS going to have a effect. I rmemeber in 82 I was ready to throw in my rugby boots and play soccer. But there were no soccer teams to play for, so I carried on with rugby. I am sure I wouls have only played for one year though, as rugby is what I do!!

That is going to have to happen one day though RB - uncontested scrums, perhaps below senior A level, just to get people playing code. Dad plays, so kids will follow!!

I could see it happening at Senior A level! Ive visited three Sen A clubs in the Valley in the last two weeks who dont have enough props and the season starts next weekend.

[Baron Silas Greenback]

How so? I dont think we were ever better than Tauranga at rugby!

You answered that question yuorself. Urban drift. Rugby isnt dieing, it is evolving.

[Baron Silas Greenback]

Just looking at the respective crowds rolling up at the Caketin recently and what I saw yesterday though, we had better watch those soccer bastards closely.

If Football was ever going to kill rugby, it was 1982.

As stated on anotehr thread the TV viewership for the All Whites and Phoenis are quite underwhelming, they just have a very good support base that attend games. Good on them.

Rugby has had to be careful about juniors for years now, but it isnt football they should be concerned about it, it is TV, Xbox and PS3.

[Luigi]

So basically rural rugby is dying in NZ but that's OK because urban drift is taking up all the slack.

Right?

[Hooroo]

That's not how I read it, I read it as that is what was happening rather than that it is OK

[Luigi]

Oh OK, rugby is dying in rural areas but that isn't a problem because urban drift is taking up the slack.

truer?

[junior]

In fact before they started the mid tournament second weigh in the Auckland sides used to pick boys weighing in the mid 60s, starve them down for the Sunday weigh in and give them two or three days to bulk up again not playing them until Wednesday or Thursday of tournament week.

These kids are primary scool-age, right? Er, that sounds like child abuse to me.