Chiefs Tight Five Exodus: Movement of Jah People.

[redbeard]

No biggie, Chiefs can build their tight 5 around Kevin O'Neill 

Ben May, Aled de Malmanche, Craig West, Kevin O'Neill, Toby Lynn.  Looks like Chiefs will need some experienced draft players.   Bronson Murray is a good prospect @ tighthead, if he wants more game time.  The Hawkes Bay loosehead, supposedly a v.good scrummager?

I think that if a franchise signs a draft player they should have a second year option on retaining his services.  For example the Chiefs blooded Ben May this year but if Yoda heads overseas the Crusaders will call him back for 2009.  Teams like the Clan and Chiefs would  benefit tenfold from getting consecutive seasons out of their draft players, who after all were not deemed good enough by their home franchise in the first place.  The Chiefs took a punt on May and blooded him into S14 rugby but look likely to lose him back to the franchise who washed their hands of him.

Jay Williams would have been great signing for the Chiefs next season but I understand he will be staying put if Ali returns and Pat Lam takes over the reigns.

A natural perspective for the fan of a side with a number of draft players and experienced players heading overseas. This however ignores the player's wishes and is also tough on the likes of the Crusaders who (in the case of May) have had him in their system previously but haven't picked him for a reason (too much depth or simply didn't believe he was ready) for just one season but then wouldn't have him the next year when needed. You're also making the brazen assumption that a season with the Chiefs has done more for the players' development than time in the Crusaders wider training group and Tasman. I think the current system where if a player is ignored for two or more seasons and goes to another franchise, the player then has the choice of which franchise to be available for, is the right one.

Come again?  Youre not seriously suggesting a full season of S14 is less beneficial for May than 3 months of fitness and holding tackle pads in CHCH?  The guy needed to play to improve,  May was ready to play S14, he needed gametime.  I think the NZRU has a responcibility to ensure all 5 franchises become as competitive as possible, especially in the current climate of uncertainty.  If the NZRU want bums on seats they need to make sure the best players are playing every week not riding pine. 

[scruffy-lookin]

No biggie, Chiefs can build their tight 5 around Kevin O'Neill 

Ben May, Aled de Malmanche, Craig West, Kevin O'Neill, Toby Lynn.  Looks like Chiefs will need some experienced draft players.   Bronson Murray is a good prospect @ tighthead, if he wants more game time.  The Hawkes Bay loosehead, supposedly a v.good scrummager?

I think that if a franchise signs a draft player they should have a second year option on retaining his services.  For example the Chiefs blooded Ben May this year but if Yoda heads overseas the Crusaders will call him back for 2009.  Teams like the Clan and Chiefs would  benefit tenfold from getting consecutive seasons out of their draft players, who after all were not deemed good enough by their home franchise in the first place.  The Chiefs took a punt on May and blooded him into S14 rugby but look likely to lose him back to the franchise who washed their hands of him.

Jay Williams would have been great signing for the Chiefs next season but I understand he will be staying put if Ali returns and Pat Lam takes over the reigns.

A natural perspective for the fan of a side with a number of draft players and experienced players heading overseas. This however ignores the player's wishes and is also tough on the likes of the Crusaders who (in the case of May) have had him in their system previously but haven't picked him for a reason (too much depth or simply didn't believe he was ready) for just one season but then wouldn't have him the next year when needed. You're also making the brazen assumption that a season with the Chiefs has done more for the players' development than time in the Crusaders wider training group and Tasman. I think the current system where if a player is ignored for two or more seasons and goes to another franchise, the player then has the choice of which franchise to be available for, is the right one.

Come again?  Youre not seriously suggesting a full season of S14 is less beneficial for May than 3 months of fitness and holding tackle pads in CHCH?  The guy needed to play to improve,  May was ready to play S14, he needed gametime.  I think the NZRU has a responcibility to ensure all 5 franchises become as competitive as possible, especially in the current climate of uncertainty.  If the NZRU want bums on seats they need to make sure the best players are playing every week not riding pine. 

The interesting question implicit in that is whether it is better for NZ rugby to have one or two very good franchises or whether it is better to have everything averaged out.

Crusaders and Blues fans would probablt make the case that their respective systems have produced that depth so it's onlyright that they should see the benefits from it and that depth plays an important role in the success of the franchise and that success is good for NZ rugby in general and AB rugby in particular.

[redbeard]

Now more than ever I feel we need to have the best 75 players starting per week wherever possible.  It wont do NZ rugby any favours at all if some of our most promising players are riding the pine for the top teams while journeymen or players who just cant cut the mustard are starting for other franchises.  Its not about raping Auckland and Canterbury at all, its about doing whats best for NZ rugby.  And if those provinces did grizzle they only need to be reminded how many promsing players they lured to their teams in the first place.  Its not hard to work out why the gates are so small at Carisbrook every week duing S14.  Successful teams have continuity. Being baled out every year with one season draft wonders does not develop continuity.

[Mojoman]

Now more than ever I feel we need to have the best 75 players starting per week wherever possible.  It wont do NZ rugby any favours at all if some of our most promising players are riding the pine for the top teams while journeymen or players who just cant cut the mustard are starting for other franchises.  Its not about raping Auckland and Canterbury at all, its about doing whats best for NZ rugby.  And if those provinces did grizzle they only need to be reminded how many promsing players they lured to their teams in the first place.  Its not hard to work out why the gates are so small at Carisbrook every week duing S14.  Successful teams have continuity. Being baled out every year with one season draft wonders does not develop continuity.

Even as a Blues supporter I wholeheartedly agree.  Case in point David Smith.  We don't know if he's AB material by sitting on the Blues bench, infact he spent most of the time playing club rugby.  Good on him for moving provinces to get consistent playing time.

IMO there is no way May would have made the same improvements training in the wider Crusaders group..and I'm betting the Crusaders mgt are over the moon he got so much exposure for the Chiefs because now he's ready to step into Yoda's shoes next year if Yoda goes overseas.

Spread the talent around, make the 5 franchises more competitive.  Will be better for NZ rugby than 2 v.strong teams.

[scruffy-lookin]

Personally I think you're right but you'll have a hard time convincing some people from the big two unions. I think this is another good reason why the franchises must remain owned by the NZRU ratherthan being sold off to private owners who would -quite rightly - have their individual franchise's best interests in mind.

I think we're probably moving towards a system in which the ANZC is versy much a feeder competition with teams aligned to six, or possibly seven, super rugby franchises. having the best players based year round at one of the franchises is the first step to minimising the player drain and maintaining the quality of one of our competitions.

[jarek]

Nathan White will come back to Chiefs next year.

It's a pity that Sekope Kepu has resigned for Waratahs.

[Donsteppa]

Come again?  Youre not seriously suggesting a full season of S14 is less beneficial for May than 3 months of fitness and holding tackle pads in CHCH?  The guy needed to play to improve,  May was ready to play S14, he needed gametime.  I think the NZRU has a responcibility to ensure all 5 franchises become as competitive as possible, especially in the current climate of uncertainty.  If the NZRU want bums on seats they need to make sure the best players are playing every week not riding pine. 

As much as my views on Foster are mixed, I think Shark is either stirring or dreaming. Getting several Super 14 games and being right in the thick of it can't be worse for individual development than sitting in a wider training group, even when it is coming into contact with Robbie Deans. Great development for when he presumably goes back to the Crusaders next year, and especially if his involvement at a higher level brought him into any contact with Mike Cron.

[redbeard]

I also disagree with those who say a 2 year draft arrangement may go against the players wishes.  Two words, Tough Shit.  IMO its perfectly simple.  For example Draft Player X is offered a $75 000 S14 contract with the Chiefs.  If he doesnt like the colours of the jersey or isnt prepared to return to that franchise the following season if required, then he must sit out that season.  The players are being paid by their employers to play professional rugby.  If they dont like the terms, they dont get the pay, or get to play.  Simple.

[Knock On Wood]

If they dont like the terms, they dont get the pay, or get to play.  So they move abroad and join the exodus. Simple.

Fixed it for you.

[scruffy-lookin]

I also disagree with those who say a 2 year draft arrangement may go against the players wishes.  Two words, Tough Shit.  IMO its perfectly simple.  For example Draft Player X is offered a $75 000 S14 contract with the Chiefs.  If he doesnt like the colours of the jersey or isnt prepared to return to that franchise the following season if required, then he must sit out that season.  The players are being paid by their employers to play professional rugby.  If they dont like the terms, they dont get the pay, or get to play.  Simple.

It's a reality of life for most people, especially early in their careers, that they have to move towns to get the job they want. I don't think that instituting a system like this would significantly add to the exodus because the players who are generally drafted are not at a stage of their careers where they are particularly attractive to NH clubs.

Most players won't leave so early in their careers because they have yet to fully develop the skills that will make them so attractive to NH clubs who are after players who can hit the ground running rather than players who the NH club will have to develop themselves.

It's hard to work out a hard and fast set of rules however because some players flourish in a new environment and some wilt.

[shark]

Come again?  Youre not seriously suggesting a full season of S14 is less beneficial for May than 3 months of fitness and holding tackle pads in CHCH?  The guy needed to play to improve,  May was ready to play S14, he needed gametime.  I think the NZRU has a responcibility to ensure all 5 franchises become as competitive as possible, especially in the current climate of uncertainty.  If the NZRU want bums on seats they need to make sure the best players are playing every week not riding pine. 

As much as my views on Foster are mixed, I think Shark is either stirring or dreaming. Getting several Super 14 games and being right in the thick of it can't be worse for individual development than sitting in a wider training group, even when it is coming into contact with Robbie Deans. Great development for when he presumably goes back to the Crusaders next year, and especially if his involvement at a higher level brought him into any contact with Mike Cron.

It was more of a dig, based on the emotive terms RB used to suit his cause in the post I quoted of his. In saying that however, it's not ever going to be an automatic thing that regular games for a franchise will improve a player - you couldn't say that in the case of many guys drafted to the Highlanders over the years. In May's case, he probably did come on as a player though.

[shark]

I also disagree with those who say a 2 year draft arrangement may go against the players wishes.  Two words, Tough Shit.  IMO its perfectly simple.  For example Draft Player X is offered a $75 000 S14 contract with the Chiefs.  If he doesnt like the colours of the jersey or isnt prepared to return to that franchise the following season if required, then he must sit out that season.  The players are being paid by their employers to play professional rugby.  If they dont like the terms, they dont get the pay, or get to play.  Simple.

Yes, tough shit indeed. Some unions and franchises simply do things better than others and develop more depth, one way or the other (from age group or by contracting, the method is moot). You're saying that if they don't get it precisely right one year and have one or two quality players left over, they could lose them forever, and the player himself also has no say? I think you'll find there are issues with that, possibly of the legal variety also.

I agree that seeing the best five players in each position week in, week out would be ideal, but it's also not realistic. The NZRFU has been down that track and the system fell over. The idea of returning to forced placements is reactionary and subjective, based on one year when, unfortunately, a S14 squad seems set to lose a lot of talent in one position.

[scruffy-lookin]

It would be interesting to know how many of the one season Highlanders are playing at other franchises or have moved overseas. It would also be interesting to know how many of the one season Highlanders careers stalled after they went back to their home province and then sat on the bench.

I can think of a couple of Crusaders who spent a bit of time there and then went on to solid careers. Ben Blair and McIntyre come to mind immediately which suggests there may be more.

[shark]

It would be interesting to know how many of the one season Highlanders are playing at other franchises or have moved overseas. It would also be interesting to know how many of the one season Highlanders careers stalled after they went back to their home province and then sat on the bench.

I can think of a couple of Crusaders who spent a bit of time there and then went on to solid careers. Ben Blair and McIntyre come to mind immediately which suggests there may be more.

Blairs' NZ career was nearly at an end when he was drafted south. McIntyre had not established himself as a starter with Canterbury or the Crusaders when he went south, but had had his moments for sure. He too went offshore soon after. Paul Williams defintely had his breakthrough season this year with the Highlanders so it will be interesting to see how he goes from now on back up SH1.

The Highlanders desperately lack continuity, but like the Chiefs franchise partners, need to look at how to provide this, without the NZRFU forcing potentially unwilling players to move.

[scruffy-lookin]

It would be interesting to know how many of the one season Highlanders are playing at other franchises or have moved overseas. It would also be interesting to know how many of the one season Highlanders careers stalled after they went back to their home province and then sat on the bench.

I can think of a couple of Crusaders who spent a bit of time there and then went on to solid careers. Ben Blair and McIntyre come to mind immediately which suggests there may be more.

Blairs' NZ career was nearly at an end when he was drafted south. McIntyre had not established himself as a starter with Canterbury or the Crusaders when he went south, but had had his moments for sure. He too went offshore soon after. Paul Williams defintely had his breakthrough season this year with the Highlanders so it will be interesting to see how he goes from now on back up SH1.

The Highlanders desperately lack continuity, but like the Chiefs franchise partners, need to look at how to provide this, without the NZRFU forcing potentially unwilling players to move.

I agree that it wouldn't be ideal but the question has to be asked, what would be better for NZ rugby?

There is no question in my mind that areas with a higher population have an advantage that is difficult for the Clan and Chiefs to overcome. While I wouldn't want to see a NBA-style draft some way has to be found to create a more equitable distribution of talent.

McIntyre leaving was, IMO, a bit of a blow to NZ rugby as any franchise outside of the Crusaders would have benefitted from a player of his class. 

[Scorz]

Shark wrote

The Highlanders desperately lack continuity, but like the Chiefs franchise partners, need to look at how to provide this, without the NZRFU forcing potentially unwilling players to move.

Pack the franchise up and move it North to Albany.

[redbeard]

I also disagree with those who say a 2 year draft arrangement may go against the players wishes.  Two words, Tough Shit.  IMO its perfectly simple.  For example Draft Player X is offered a $75 000 S14 contract with the Chiefs.  If he doesnt like the colours of the jersey or isnt prepared to return to that franchise the following season if required, then he must sit out that season.  The players are being paid by their employers to play professional rugby.  If they dont like the terms, they dont get the pay, or get to play.  Simple.

Yes, tough shit indeed. Some unions and franchises simply do things better than others and develop more depth, one way or the other (from age group or by contracting, the method is moot). You're saying that if they don't get it precisely right one year and have one or two quality players left over, they could lose them forever, and the player himself also has no say? I think you'll find there are issues with that, possibly of the legal variety also.

I agree that seeing the best five players in each position week in, week out would be ideal, but it's also not realistic. The NZRFU has been down that track and the system fell over. The idea of returning to forced placements is reactionary and subjective, based on one year when, unfortunately, a S14 squad seems set to lose a lot of talent in one position.

Its really a chicken and egg debate though.  Most top players and coaches only want to go to associate themselves with winning teams.  The Highlanders are never going to get a guy like Ali Williams sign for them to give it a go to to see if they can turn it around.  They are only ever going to get castoffs who ultimately want to head somewhere else after getting that S14 experience.   Signing the right personel is a hugely important part of the process.  You cant turn a franchise around overnight, it centres on getting the right people invloved on and off the field.  Thats what makes Robbies shift to the Wallabies even more intruiging for me.  Deans is going to have players there in some positions who may not necessarily be test quality but they are really his only viable options.  By signing draft players up for two seasons, you are giving a franchise continuity so they can create a vision to long term vision with their squad.

[shark]

I also disagree with those who say a 2 year draft arrangement may go against the players wishes.  Two words, Tough Shit.  IMO its perfectly simple.  For example Draft Player X is offered a $75 000 S14 contract with the Chiefs.  If he doesnt like the colours of the jersey or isnt prepared to return to that franchise the following season if required, then he must sit out that season.  The players are being paid by their employers to play professional rugby.  If they dont like the terms, they dont get the pay, or get to play.  Simple.

Yes, tough shit indeed. Some unions and franchises simply do things better than others and develop more depth, one way or the other (from age group or by contracting, the method is moot). You're saying that if they don't get it precisely right one year and have one or two quality players left over, they could lose them forever, and the player himself also has no say? I think you'll find there are issues with that, possibly of the legal variety also.

I agree that

seeing the best five players in each position week in, week out would be ideal, but it's also not realistic. The NZRFU has been down that track and the system fell over. The idea of returning to forced placements is reactionary and subjective, based on one year when, unfortunately, a S14 squad seems set to lose a lot of talent in one position.

Its really a chicken and egg debate though.  Most top players and coaches only want to go to associate themselves with winning teams.  The Highlanders are never going to get a guy like Ali Williams sign for them to give it a go to to see if they can turn it around.  They are only ever going to get castoffs who ultimately want to head somewhere else after getting that S14 experience.   Signing the right personel is a hugely important part of the process.  You cant turn a franchise around overnight, it centres on getting the right people invloved on and off the field.  Thats what makes Robbies shift to the Wallabies even more intruiging for me.  Deans is going to have players there in some positions who may not necessarily be test quality but they are really his only viable options. By signing draft players up for two seasons, you are giving a franchise continuity so they can create a vision to long term vision with their squad.

Aha - different kettle of fish however, and one I have no issue with. If the Chiefs had been able to draft May this year and have an option on him for a second year then that's fine - the player just needs to make the choice of sticking around in a wider training group and relying on the likes of Yoda departing the next year so they get a chance in the squad (and no guarantee of regular games), or committing to the Chiefs for a second season and taking his chances upon a return to Chch. But, just as the Chiefs have the option of not selecting him for the second year, so must the player have the choice of passing up selection. This is different to telling a promising player not yet selected by a deep Crusaders franchise after one reasonable Air NZ Cup, that he has to got to the Chiefs and indefinitely. That would be great for the Chiefs but balls for the Crusaders, and where do you cut it off? Could a franchise have an option on a NZ U19 player that your franchise doesn't brlieve is ready for S14, etc etc?

[taniwharugby]

It's one thing when the guy (in this example May) comes from another Frabchise side, he still has the option to return home; it is when the guy is form a non-super side it becomes messy.

Vainikolo is one that springs to mind, he will be available for the Blues, but like Smith, will most likely be superflous, meaning he will need to be drafted, and then comes the fact he is likely to 'need' (through wanting to have stability in his life) to move away from Northland.

[red machine]

  Sorry I havent been "Ferning " for a day or two, so haven't had a chance to comment on this thread. Chiefs will not have to look hard to bolster their stocks as I would think there would be some disgruntled Hurricanes looking for relocation. Thomas Waldrum is one who has spoken out but I would think that a certain B Upton would not exactly be   delighted with his game time in the Canes's I think that those two at least would be keen to move in the draft.
 Not close enough to the man to talk to him about it, but I Know his (Uptons) form for MSP has been outstanding as was his form in last years Air New Zealand cup. Rumour has it he is understandably unhappy. Just a thought......